... it's about time

[TheBigHurt]

I asked some Royals fans I know about Ozzie.

Some of them are sabes people. All of them thought it out of the realm of possibility fans want him fired.

One guy said he probably should be on the hot seat if they suck next year but the WS title still should bide him some time and our players are overrated.

 

It's pretty obvious you're the kind of guy who doesn't think for yourself. You'll agree with anyone who shares your mindset no matter how stupid they sound because you don't have the ability to see the big picture. You're the epitome of the common American these days:

 

"I'm an AMERICAN and my opinion matters just as much as everyone else's... even if I have NO insight BEHIND my opinion. Why do I even HAVE the opinion I do? Well... I don't know! But I'll stay in firm belief of it because it's my right!"

[caulfield12]

It's pretty obvious you're the kind of guy who doesn't think for yourself. You'll agree with anyone who shares your mindset no matter how stupid they sound because you don't have the ability to see the big picture. You're the epitome of the common American these days:

 

"I'm an AMERICAN and my opinion matters just as much as everyone else's... even if I have NO insight BEHIND my opinion. Why do I even HAVE the opinion I do? Well... I don't know! But I'll stay in firm belief of it because it's my right!"

 

 

It's impossible to support Ozzie simply by saying "he's no Bevington."

 

He's arguably the worst White Sox manager in modern history. Forget about the record, because he had some talented players on his roster, the guy was a buffoon and completely unprepared for the responsibility of managing a big league ballclub.

 

Ozzie's not in that category yet, but he's getting closer and closer. The main thing that prevents his devolving into Bevington territory is always going to be 2005. That's his trump card.

 

But all the statistical evidence has proven that the financial benefits of winning a World Series run out 5 years after a title.

[VictoryMC98]

Because those of us that follow this team more than anyone else, know less about this team than anyone else.

 

Or might have a bias for looking for a scapegoat, every fan of their team when it goes bad blames the manager, sometimes it is justified.. and IMO in this case it is not.

 

My #1 fear, we fire Ozzie, 2012.. Same problems... Which means it was a bad team from the GM, so we have to fire the GM.. And now we hire a new GM who wants to bring in his own manager.. Which means we don't get to the playoffs for the next 3-4 years...at best. Only good thing, we get some decent draft picks.

Edited September 9, 2011 by VictoryMC98

[greg775]

Or might have a bias for looking for a scapegoat, every fan of their team when it goes bad blames the manager, sometimes it is justified.. and IMO in this case it is not.

 

My #1 fear, we fire Ozzie, 2012.. Same problems... Which means it was a bad team from the GM, so we have to fire the GM.. And now we hire a new GM who wants to bring in his own manager.. Which means we don't get to the playoffs for the next 3-4 years...at best. Only good thing, we get some decent draft picks.

 

Amen.

Blame the quarterback. Blame the manager.

 

As far as the other posts ... the piling on is weird. You say I can't think for myself. How can you say that, Big Hurt? You think I just think what others think??

 

I like Jenks. I like Juan. I like Wise. I like Ozzie.

 

So shoot me, but I like the four of them. How's that not thinking for myself? I also liked Pods. All have pretty much been buried on here.

 

I wanted to see what others outside of this board thought of Ozzie so I asked a few. They think he's fine and don't really understand the furor. We have a lot of s***ty underperforming millionaire players. Some of you even blame

 

Ozzie for that. Really? Ozzie couldn't fire up Dunn or Rios so it's Oz's fault? Yuk.

 

My point was meant to be that look for a lot of confused people if we fire Ozzie.

Edited September 9, 2011 by greg775

[Texsox]

People in Lawrence Kansas have no problem with Ozzie Guillen? Wow! How insightful. I am certain they spend a ton of time following his lineups, in-game decisions, and bullpen moves.

 

One of my favorite authors, William Burroughs, called Lawrence home at the end of his life. I'm not certain if he followed the Sox.

[Texsox]

If a manager made every decision exactly by the stats, wouldn't that make him exactly an average manager? he would never be better than the stats, or worse, he'd be exactly average.

[VictoryMC98]

Amen.

Blame the quarterback. Blame the manager.

 

As far as the other posts ... the piling on is weird. You say I can't think for myself. How can you say that, Big Hurt? You think I just think what others think??

 

I like Jenks. I like Juan. I like Wise. I like Ozzie.

 

So shoot me, but I like the four of them. How's that not thinking for myself? I also liked Pods. All have pretty much been buried on here.

 

I wanted to see what others outside of this board thought of Ozzie so I asked a few. They think he's fine and don't really understand the furor. We have a lot of s***ty underperforming millionaire players. Some of you even blame

 

Ozzie for that. Really? Ozzie couldn't fire up Dunn or Rios so it's Oz's fault? Yuk.

 

My point was meant to be that look for a lot of confused people if we fire Ozzie.

 

Wait, I am for what you did.. I have friends that are Twins fans, from Minny.. They admire Ozzie.. But, they want Ozzie over Gardy, so it seems the Grass is greener on the other side, when things are not going your way.

[jenksycat]

How Greg still doesn't understand baffles me. Nobody can be that dense without intentionally trolling

[max power]

How Greg still doesn't understand baffles me. Nobody can be that dense without intentionally trolling

I don't think he is dense or trolling. I think he understands you. I think he supports his team and is loyal to a fault (if there is such a thing).

 

There is really no need for the insults.

[caulfield12]

I don't doubt that most here would choose Gardenhire over Guillen to manage the White Sox (if that were possible) for 2012.

 

Maybe a poll? Maybe not. Kind of tired of this topic.

[max power]

I doubt either of them go anywhere. I wish ozzie were gone, not primarily because I think his replacement would be better, but because he is a bigot, an extremely arrogant person, and he insults the fans' (including my own) intelligence. The man is not a professional, and I don't like the team I support to be associated with him.

 

 

His replacement would likely be better at the job on top of that, but that is an uncertainty.

Edited September 9, 2011 by MAX

[TheBigHurt]

If a manager made every decision exactly by the stats, wouldn't that make him exactly an average manager? he would never be better than the stats, or worse, he'd be exactly average.

 

Average >>> Below Average.

 

Agree?

[lostfan]

It's pretty obvious you're the kind of guy who doesn't think for yourself. You'll agree with anyone who shares your mindset no matter how stupid they sound because you don't have the ability to see the big picture. You're the epitome of the common American these days:

 

"I'm an AMERICAN and my opinion matters just as much as everyone else's... even if I have NO insight BEHIND my opinion. Why do I even HAVE the opinion I do? Well... I don't know! But I'll stay in firm belief of it because it's my right!"

I don't hover over all of your posts and replies to greg775, but you do this type of thing frequently and you really need to knock it off.

 

I'm sure greg knows a lot of people on the board disagree with him, but you essentially calling him stupid = personal attack. If you can't raise your level of writing to make your point without lowering yourself to that, you're probably better off leaving it alone.

[chw42]

If a manager made every decision exactly by the stats, wouldn't that make him exactly an average manager? he would never be better than the stats, or worse, he'd be exactly average.

 

Not really. The whole point of using statistics in baseball is to exploit weaknesses and play to the strength of your team. So you'd be doing quite the opposite.

[jenksycat]

I don't care 1 bit about Ozzie not using statistics as much as he should, I'm fine with letting a manager go with his gut and lifetime of playing baseball.

 

Where I draw the line is when the f***ing manager sabotages the season because he's a petty, egomaniac fighting with his boss. At this point, either Ozzie needs to go or they both do. If KW goes and Ozzie stays, I can't even imagine how big Ozzie's head will be next season.

[Texsox]

Not really. The whole point of using statistics in baseball is to exploit weaknesses and play to the strength of your team. So you'd be doing quite the opposite.

 

So if every manager always followed the stats they would all be above average?

 

And this was not directed at OZ, but everyone will think it is. I was just thinking if every manager just fed every decision into the computer and played what the stats call for, (which is impossible because you have contradictory stats to guide you) a manger who makes one decision against the stats has the potential to be the one manager above or below average. What will separate the managers isn't the decisions they make guided by stats, but the decisions they make against the stats. To steer this away from baseball and hopefully take Oz out of the discussion, the guy who decides a "coming out of the half on sides kick" is a great gamble wins when it works out, is a dog when it backfires. Plus how many decisions in sports have stats that show a better than 50% chance of something working out? Usually is is if you do this it will work out 22% of the time, if you do this it will work out 28% of the time. Pick the first one and you're an idiot for not following the stats.

 

I'm hoping the next manager isn't a slave to stats, I also hope they make better decisions in when to gamble and who to gamble on.

 

 

[Texsox]

Average >>> Below Average.

 

Agree?

 

Agreed, see above

 

Above average >>>>>>>>>>> average

 

Agree?

[hogan873]

Plopping a new manager on the bench won't solve everything. It's not going to fix Dunn and Rios. Those guys are professional veterans that need to figure a lot out on their own. But, in regards to Dunn and Rios, Ozzie made the mistake of playing them too often, in the wrong spots in the lineup, and in pressure situations when everyone knew they'd fail. I don't know how much of Ozzie's decision making is cluelessness vs. stubbornness. I don't think Ozzie is a stupid guy. I think a lot of what he does is out of stubbornness. His attitude gets too big for the game, and in turn he makes bad decisions.

[Balta1701]

Plopping a new manager on the bench won't solve everything. It's not going to fix Dunn and Rios. Those guys are professional veterans that need to figure a lot out on their own.

I think you're way underestimating the effect quality preparation can have on a player.

[Texsox]

I think you're way underestimating the effect quality preparation can have on a player.

 

I'm interested, how does the manager prepare his players? What have Dunn's other manager's done for him that Ozzie isn't? I'm just not buying any excuses for a veteran athlete like Dunn. Should Ozzie have gone to Dunn's house and prepared him a low cal lunch? Maybe each night sit by his bedside and read him scouting reports? Pick him up on days off and go for a run? Oz made some stupid decisions that didn't pan out, but I'm not giving Dunn and Rios a pass.

[mcgrad70]

I understand what you're saying about sabotaging the season and many times it has sure looked that way. But if that could be proven it'd be like a ban for life from baseball. I can't in good conscience ever imagine that to be the case.

 

Either that or Guillen is the one of worst in-game strategist ever - in any sport.

Here in Chicago we're blessed to have three of the worst and two of them work for Reinsdorf which is no surprise.

The other masquerades as a pro football coach.

Lousy ownership begets lousy management.

 

[Balta1701]

I'm interested, how does the manager prepare his players? What have Dunn's other manager's done for him that Ozzie isn't?

I think that in spring training Ozzie just assumes that if a guy is a veteran he knows how to get ready and spends most of his tome pushing the rookies. It's the same philosophy you hear articulated from walker... He's a veteran so he should know how to work out of this.

 

My example is Pierre. He comes in with weight training and such, and he's one of Ozzies guys. I think ozzie let's him off easy in ST on batting and fielding because he's obviously in shape. So, the last 2 years, Pierre has had terrible aprils, when he never did that in his career until he got to Chicago. Some guys might work well like that, but a lot of these guys need that extra push, and if you're one of Ozzies guys...you won't get that push.

[Texsox]

I think that in spring training Ozzie just assumes that if a guy is a veteran he knows how to get ready and spends most of his tome pushing the rookies. It's the same philosophy you hear articulated from walker... He's a veteran so he should know how to work out of this.

 

My example is Pierre. He comes in with weight training and such, and he's one of Ozzies guys. I think ozzie let's him off easy in ST on batting and fielding because he's obviously in shape. So, the last 2 years, Pierre has had terrible aprils, when he never did that in his career until he got to Chicago. Some guys might work well like that, but a lot of these guys need that extra push, and if you're one of Ozzies guys...you won't get that push.

 

OK, I'll accept that. How much should the athlete be motivated on his own and how much is the manager?

[Balta1701]

OK, I'll accept that. How much should the athlete be motivated on his own and how much is the manager?

Here's gonna be a mind blowing answer.

 

Its the managers job to figure that out for his players. Even the most motivated athlete migt not do what is best to get himself going. A managers (and coaches) job is to figure that riddle out.

[VictoryMC98]

I think that in spring training Ozzie just assumes that if a guy is a veteran he knows how to get ready and spends most of his tome pushing the rookies. It's the same philosophy you hear articulated from walker... He's a veteran so he should know how to work out of this.

 

My example is Pierre. He comes in with weight training and such, and he's one of Ozzies guys. I think ozzie let's him off easy in ST on batting and fielding because he's obviously in shape. So, the last 2 years, Pierre has had terrible aprils, when he never did that in his career until he got to Chicago. Some guys might work well like that, but a lot of these guys need that extra push, and if you're one of Ozzies guys...you won't get that push.

 

Then explain how Rios had a great start of the gate last year, how Paulie, seemed to be ok.. as well. Didn't Carlos Q also come out of the gate swinging hot?

 

Also Dunn's first series in CLE, didn't seem to affect his performance at all.

 

I don't buy your theory...