Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:00 PM) So projecting three players in their prime to continue to perform (Peavy, Rios, Dunn) was poor evaluation? We aren't talking about three guys that are 35 years old or three guys without proven track records (Rios is debatable), we're talking about three solid players. With Peavy, specifically, you're implying that Kenny should have known that Peavy would have a freaking muscle detach in his back (first time in MLB history)? If you look at the history of those guys, yes, expecting them to continue to perform was a poor gamble. Dunn may have been likely to continue performing and thus the best gamble of the group, but Rios had trended downward for years and was having a bad 2009 when the Sox risked picking him up. Peavy had had elbow problems before, a broken rib before, and then the ankle thing before the Sox traded for him, in addition to a long list of people saying that his mechanics were risky before the Sox ever picked him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 12:14 PM) If you look at the history of those guys, yes, expecting them to continue to perform was a poor gamble. Dunn may have been likely to continue performing and thus the best gamble of the group, but Rios had trended downward for years and was having a bad 2009 when the Sox risked picking him up. Peavy had had elbow problems before, a broken rib before, and then the ankle thing before the Sox traded for him, in addition to a long list of people saying that his mechanics were risky before the Sox ever picked him up. Not to mention the Petco effect. I'm starting to think Fausto Carmona could produce a 3.50 ERA in that park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:20 PM) Not to mention the Petco effect. I'm starting to think Fausto Carmona could produce a 3.50 ERA in that park. The 2007 pitching triple crown is nothing to scoff at, no matter what ballpark. ERA ok...but Wins and Strikeouts too. Dude was a legit great pitcher, but he got there with a max effort delivery. Everyone knew it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 12:21 PM) The 2007 pitching triple crown is nothing to scoff at, no matter what ballpark. ERA ok...but Wins and Strikeouts too. Dude was a legit great pitcher, but he got there with a max effort delivery. Everyone knew it. Meh. When I see Aaron Harang, a guy who was a walking pile of possum s*** for three years straight, go to the Padres and 'rediscover' himself, I'd say the Petco effect cannot be underestimated. I think Peavy was very good at one point. But that park certainly contributed to his dominance. Edited September 10, 2011 by Jordan4life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 06:27 PM) Meh. When I see Aaron Harang, a guy who was a walking pile of possum s*** for three years straight, go to the Padres and 'rediscover' himself, I'd say the Petco effect cannot be underestimated. I think Peavy was very good at one point. But that park certainly contributed to his dominance. All you had to do is watch Linebrink pitch for us to know just how strong the Petco effect is. I'm 100% convinced that Javy Vazquez would have won a Cy Young Award during his career if he pitched in that park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmmmbeeer Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I know Coop tried to get Jake to tweak his delivery a bit, but if his delivery were so risky as to make the acquisition a huge gamble, Coop would've stopped KW (or atleast hinted strongly that it was a bad idea). This was the first guy in MLB to come out and say Strasberg was destined for TJ and has overseen one of the healthiest rotations in baseball for the past several years. Coop knows what he's doing and I have full faith he was very involved in that acquisition. There's been no surer thing in baseball than Adam Dunn. You won't (and can't) convince me otherwise. There's no way the Sox could have foreseen what took place this season. Even switching leagues, there's been no precedence of a drop-off like Dunn's. Rios was a gamble and is certainly the one acquisition KW should take some blame for...on the other hand, Rios very much looked at as a "change of atmosphere" kind of player. All the tools in the world but inconsistent with questionable dedication just screams bad environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) The 2007 pitching triple crown is nothing to scoff at, no matter what ballpark. ERA ok...but Wins and Strikeouts too. Dude was a legit great pitcher, but he got there with a max effort delivery. Everyone knew it. But, I agree he was a stud..The park had something to do with it. Also the leagues... I don't blame KW, for going after Peavy at the time.. It was a smart move at the time. He started last year to show signs of his old self, before ripping his muscle off the bone. Now he was back prior to when they stated he would.. But with his deal on the books, then KW, goes and gets Rios, who just flat out has sucked for the money he is making. And that is Ozzie's fault.. It seems from reading this thread.. KW gets a free pass.. While all the blame of the bad roster is on Ozzie... Edited September 10, 2011 by VictoryMC98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:46 PM) It seems from reading this thread.. KW gets a free pass.. While all the blame of the bad roster is on Ozzie... I'm gonna continue blaming Ozzie for the underperformance of what should be a good roster. I'll blame Kenny if he underestimated the risk he put in his roster. But that said...if you want to blame Ozzie for roster mistakes...it's not exactly hard. Cost us a shot at the 2010 pennant race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) I'm gonna continue blaming Ozzie for the underperformance of what should be a good roster. I'll blame Kenny if he underestimated the risk he put in his roster. But that said...if you want to blame Ozzie for roster mistakes...it's not exactly hard. Cost us a shot at the 2010 pennant race. So Ozzie decided to have a crappy Pen? Edited September 10, 2011 by VictoryMC98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 12:50 PM) So he decided to have a crappy Pen? No, he decided that there was no room for a HOF slugger but managed to find well over 300 at bats for Mark Kotsay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:50 PM) So Ozzie decided to have a crappy Pen? Well...he did keep using Bobby Jenks as closer, so yeah, that was part of it. And I guess since Mark Kotsay was his emergency pitcher, then that's part of the pen problem too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Well...he did keep using Bobby Jenks as closer, so yeah, that was part of it. And I guess since Mark Kotsay was his emergency pitcher, then that's part of the pen problem too. DH wasn't the fact the SOX lost.. Lack of a PEN did. And at the break, they get... A SP Also failing to have a MLB 3b, if you want to start talking offense. But, I'm sure that's Ozzie's fault too for the SOX acquiring Teahen, then giving him a 2-3 year ext. Now the sox have not had a 3b since Crede left, but I'm sure that's Ozzie's fault too? I would also like to blame Ozzie for last time I was at the park.. I had to wait in line to get my beer, and then the guys in front of me took the last Sam Adams. Ozzie should have stopped the game to get me my beer!!! For the last 3 years Ozzie was given a sub-par team, and told.. go win with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 07:04 PM) DH wasn't the fact the SOX lost.. Lack of a PEN did. And at the break, they get... A SP Also failing to have a MLB 3b, if you want to start talking offense. But, I'm sure that's Ozzie's fault too for the SOX acquiring Teahen, then giving him a 2-3 year ext. Now the sox have not had a 3b since Crede left, but I'm sure that's Ozzie's fault too? I would also like to blame Ozzie for last time I was at the park.. I had to wait in line to get my beer, and then the guys in front of me took the last Sam Adams. Ozzie should have stopped the game to get me my beer!!! For the last 3 years Ozzie was given a sub-par team, and told.. go win with it. So what you're saying is only way for Ozzie to win with a team is if he has a massively overachieving team like 2005? I'd rather have a manager that's able to get the best out of players and figure out ways to win even when team is struggling. Of course it was going to be hard for Ozzie to have a winning team this year...but he didn't have to add to the situation by keeping Dunn in the lineup against LHP, high in the order, etc. Edited September 10, 2011 by fathom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 So what you're saying is only way for Ozzie to win with a team is if he has a massively overachieving team like 2005? I'd rather have a manager that's able to get the best out of players and figure out ways to win even when team is struggling. Of course it was going to be hard for Ozzie to have a winning team this year...but he didn't have to add to the situation by keeping Dunn in the lineup against LHP, high in the order, etc. I'll ask you this since Balta can't... Name me another manager who makes this team a playoff team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:34 PM) I'll ask you this since Balta can't... Name me another manager who makes this team a playoff team. What's the point? It can't be proven. It'd be your opinion vs whoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 What's the point? It can't be proven. It'd be your opinion vs whoever. Your argument has become.. Lets use Ozzie as the scapegoat, because this team isn't as talented as others in our division. Am I wrong in stating that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:46 PM) Your argument has become.. Lets use Ozzie as the scapegoat, because this team isn't as talented as others in our division. Am I wrong in stating that? No offense. But that's a joke. Nobody outside of Detroit thought coming in the Tigers had more talent than us. And the White Sox have perpetually underachieved with superior talent during Ozzie's tenure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 07:46 PM) Your argument has become.. Lets use Ozzie as the scapegoat, because this team isn't as talented as others in our division. Am I wrong in stating that? The Sox are as talented as anyone in the AL Central. For one reason or another, guys like Peralta had a career year while Dunn/Rios were awful. Also, credit goes out to Detroit for being aggressive at the deadline and locking up the division by adding Fister and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:50 PM) The Sox are as talented as anyone in the AL Central. For one reason or another, guys like Peralta had a career year while Dunn/Rios were awful. Also, credit goes out to Detroit for being aggressive at the deadline and locking up the division by adding Fister and others. Yup. Young and Fister (especially Fister) have been huge for them. Meanwhile our only realistic option was to slash payroll. Edited September 10, 2011 by Jordan4life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 No offense. But that's a joke. Nobody outside of Detroit thought coming in the Tigers had more talent than us. And the White Sox have perpetually underachieved with superior talent during Ozzie's tenure. I don't take offense at all, we have a difference of opinions. I fail to see any manager that can take this team and make it into a winner. You see to blame all the Organization issues on Ozzie. Where as I am safe to state, Ozzie has been the best manager the White Sox have had in 25+ years. Do you think all of the White Sox problems are going to get solved by just getting rid of Ozzie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 03:12 PM) Do you think all of the White Sox problems are going to get solved by just getting rid of Ozzie? No, Ozzie doesn't handle the draft or the minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 No, Ozzie doesn't handle the draft or the minors. So getting rid of Ozzie does what then, other than give the Sox a short term solution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 03:25 PM) So getting rid of Ozzie does what then, other than give the Sox a short term solution? A long term solution at the big league levelwould be nice too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:40 PM) What's the point? It can't be proven. It'd be your opinion vs whoever. Maybe someday people will drop the idea that with Thome they win the ALC in 2010. People still want to beat that dead horse. We might as well beat that dead horse of acquiring him via trade has a bad idea too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 02:41 PM) Maybe someday people will drop the idea that with Thome they win the ALC in 2010. People still want to beat that dead horse. We might as well beat that dead horse of acquiring him via trade has a bad idea too. Maybe, maybe not. I do know it would have strengthened the Sox and weakened the division champion. It also would have probably saved KW from signing Dunn. Ozzie said no, took full responsibility for it, then said it wasn't only him. Who knows the truth. The bottom line is its KW's responsibility to form the roster. If Ozzie talks him into a mistake, that's not on Ozzie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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