Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 05:31 PM) Maybe, maybe not. I do know it would have strengthened the Sox and weakened the division champion. It also would have probably saved KW from signing Dunn. Ozzie said no, took full responsibility for it, then said it wasn't only him. Who knows the truth. The bottom line is its KW's responsibility to form the roster. If Ozzie talks him into a mistake, that's not on Ozzie. If KW is ordered to give Ozzie the roster he wants though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Without Ozzie, we finally get rid of Walker. That might be the ONLY remaining way left to turn around Rios/Dunn/Beckham. Because of that impending risk, and that amount of money alone invested in those guys (the equivalent of $100+ million), goodbye Ozzie. Otherwise, you're just writing all three of them off completely. Imagine the heat Beckham would be taking (if we were within 2-3 games of DET still), were it not for the presence of Dunn/Rios/Peavy this year?? Or even Morel...like Anderson in 2006. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 04:55 PM) If KW is ordered to give Ozzie the roster he wants though... If that's the case, Guillen deserves more credit for the World Series title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Nope, Marty. Ozzie didn't have that "power" until well after 2005. You remember, KW brought in the likes of Javy, Cabrera, Swisher and Thome? None of those were "Ozzie moves," with the exception of Freddy Garcia. Ozzie has seemingly had almost unlimited roster control since before the 2010 season...especially in regards to Viciedo, not dumping Pierre, not bringing back Thome (rotating DH with Jones/Kotsay/positional players resting once every week or 2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Without Ozzie, we finally get rid of Walker. That might be the ONLY remaining way left to turn around Rios/Dunn/Beckham. Because of that impending risk, and that amount of money alone invested in those guys (the equivalent of $100+ million), goodbye Ozzie. Otherwise, you're just writing all three of them off completely. Imagine the heat Beckham would be taking (if we were within 2-3 games of DET still), were it not for the presence of Dunn/Rios/Peavy this year?? Or even Morel...like Anderson in 2006. Beckham, would have been in AAA for all of 09, if KW got a 3B... And let him grow and fail in the minors. IMO, and I don't know if this is possible, but you bring in a veteran like Mark Ellis, have him compete for with Beckham, if Beckham can't make it throw him in AAA, until he can hit .300 for over a month at the min. Ellis brings a nice stopgap, and a good backup as well if Bacon Who is going to replace Morel, the great Mark Teahan, another one of KW great PUs. As said before, The Sox have not had a 3b on their roster since Crede left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 (edited) Maybe someday people will drop the idea that with Thome they win the ALC in 2010. People still want to beat that dead horse. We might as well beat that dead horse of acquiring him via trade has a bad idea too. I agree on the 2010.. Look at the Yankees this season their DH is their weakest link in their lineup yet somehow they managed to be in 1st place. Edited September 11, 2011 by VictoryMC98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 11, 2011 -> 02:30 AM) I agree on the 2010.. Look at the Yankees this season their DH is their weakest link in their lineup yet somehow they managed to be in 1st place. It's not just how bad our production was at DH, but also with how great Thome was for the Twins when Morneau went down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Fresh quotes today on ESPN.com. You guys may be unhappy campers if Oz is right. "I expect to be back here next year," Guillen told ESPN 1000's "Talkin' Baseball" on Saturday. "I expect to be back here for a long time. I think I'm shooting for the moon, but I think my expectations are pretty high, always will be. I think there's no doubt in anybody's mind how much I love this organization, how much I love this city. ... [There were] two things that [were] my goals when I was a kid, that was to play in the big leagues and manage in the big leagues, and I did it with this organization. I expect to be back just not next year, I expect to be back here the next 20 years." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 It's not just how bad our production was at DH, but also with how great Thome was for the Twins when Morneau went down. But didn't Twins limit his ABs for 1/2 the season, if memory serves me correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 08:28 PM) Beckham, would have been in AAA for all of 09, if KW got a 3B... And let him grow and fail in the minors. IMO, and I don't know if this is possible, but you bring in a veteran like Mark Ellis, have him compete for with Beckham, if Beckham can't make it throw him in AAA, until he can hit .300 for over a month at the min. Ellis brings a nice stopgap, and a good backup as well if Bacon Who is going to replace Morel, the great Mark Teahan, another one of KW great PUs. As said before, The Sox have not had a 3b on their roster since Crede left. Give me a f***ing break. Gordon was good his rookie year. Than Walker f***ed with his swing. Then refused to change his swing back. Then KW tried to fire Walker. JR said no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 (edited) Give me a f***ing break. Gordon was good his rookie year. Than Walker f***ed with his swing. Then refused to change his swing back. Then KW tried to fire Walker. JR said no. You have a great sense of humor. If your serious, what manager takes this team and makes it a playoff team? Edited September 11, 2011 by VictoryMC98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 09:55 PM) You have a great sense of humor. You have great baseball knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 08:28 PM) Beckham, would have been in AAA for all of 09, if KW got a 3B... And let him grow and fail in the minors. IMO, and I don't know if this is possible, but you bring in a veteran like Mark Ellis, have him compete for with Beckham, if Beckham can't make it throw him in AAA, until he can hit .300 for over a month at the min. Ellis brings a nice stopgap, and a good backup as well if Bacon Who is going to replace Morel, the great Mark Teahan, another one of KW great PUs. As said before, The Sox have not had a 3b on their roster since Crede left. Beckham was great in 09. If anything, he should have built on his success that season. Instead, he's been messing with his swing ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Beckham was great in 09. If anything, he should have built on his success that season. Instead, he's been messing with his swing ever since. Beckham never failed before pitchers started to make their adjustments to him. When he started to fail, he never knew how to get out of a struggle prior, and the majors isn't the place to learn. Look at Tank, they let him learn and take his bumps in the minors.. Now he is showing progress since last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmmmbeeer Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 09:08 PM) Beckham never failed before pitchers started to make their adjustments to him. When he started to fail, he never knew how to get out of a struggle prior, and the majors isn't the place to learn. Look at Tank, they let him learn and take his bumps in the minors.. Now he is showing progress since last year. Yes, because we know Beckham couldn't hit 94MPH fastballs when he was a rookie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 09:18 PM) But didn't Twins limit his ABs for 1/2 the season, if memory serves me correct? It was closer to 2 months...before Morneau went down for the year, and they also had to juggle playing time with Young, Span, Kubel and Cuddyer in the DH slot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 10:08 PM) Beckham never failed before pitchers started to make their adjustments to him. When he started to fail, he never knew how to get out of a struggle prior, and the majors isn't the place to learn. Look at Tank, they let him learn and take his bumps in the minors.. Now he is showing progress since last year. Tank had no plate discipline when he came to the Majors. Beckham was everything fans expected when he came up in 09. Decent power, good walk rate, ability to hit consistently. He was Major League ready. But if you look at his peripherals these past two years, you'll see he's nowhere near as patient (walk rate has dropped 2% every season since 09), his power is gone (100 point drop in ISO), and we all know the story about his batting average. Those two guys' development can't be compared. Edited September 11, 2011 by chw42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 10:08 PM) Beckham never failed before pitchers started to make their adjustments to him. When he started to fail, he never knew how to get out of a struggle prior, and the majors isn't the place to learn. Look at Tank, they let him learn and take his bumps in the minors.. Now he is showing progress since last year. Beckham wasn't going to fail in the minor leagues. Viciedo will fail in the major leagues, and will have to learn how to deal with it. That argument is for people who feel they must show some expertese but have no idea what the problem is. I'll buy guys need to learn how to deal with failure, but Beckham had plenty of it last season, and came out of it. I don't know why that wouldn't matter, but getting out of a 1-20 against minor leaguers 3 or 4 years ago would. Edited September 11, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 02:12 PM) I don't take offense at all, we have a difference of opinions. I fail to see any manager that can take this team and make it into a winner. You see to blame all the Organization issues on Ozzie. Where as I am safe to state, Ozzie has been the best manager the White Sox have had in 25+ years. Do you think all of the White Sox problems are going to get solved by just getting rid of Ozzie? Holy strawman, Batman. You really would get along with greg in that regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 11, 2011 -> 08:37 PM) Holy strawman, Batman. You really would get along with greg in that regard. Yes he and I happen to agree on this Ozzie issue, just like you agree with people on certain issues. Yes he would get along with me in that regard. Is there something wrong with that? IMO you don't seem to understand the concept that somebody just might disagree with you on something and that those who disagree could actually be right once in a while. It's a masterful internet persona and I have congratulated u on perfecting it. Edited September 12, 2011 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 11, 2011 -> 10:31 PM) Yes he and I happen to agree on this Ozzie issue, just like you agree with people on certain issues. Yes he would get along with me in that regard. Is there something wrong with that? IMO you don't seem to understand the concept that somebody just might disagree with you on something and that those who disagree could actually be right once in a while. It's a masterful internet persona and I have congratulated u on perfecting it. You do realize that's falling on deaf ears? Except now I quoted you, so Milk can actually see it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 11, 2011 -> 10:35 PM) You do realize that's falling on deaf ears? Except now I quoted you, so Milk can actually see it now. You suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I think it's time to break up the KW / Oz tandem, they are not working together I think Oz is the one to go I do not believe another manager would have this team in first I think KW had the right mix this season, but no one could reliably predicted Dunn's season, Peavy Problems, etc The solution to big contracts is never sign a quality veteran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/...p;sct=hp_bf2_a6 08:43 AM ET 09.11 | The Marlins haven't ruled out trading a player (certainly not a key one) for top managerial choice Ozzie Guillen, but prefer not to, and will wait until his availability is known before moving on to anyone else. Miami Herald Read more: http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/...6#ixzz1XjcqZXU3 I think being traded would be teh perfect end to Oz's tenure here. Unique, just like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 12, 2011 -> 04:54 AM) I think it's time to break up the KW / Oz tandem, they are not working together I think Oz is the one to go I do not believe another manager would have this team in first I think KW had the right mix this season, but no one could reliably predicted Dunn's season, Peavy Problems, etc The solution to big contracts is never sign a quality veteran. I think you mean hyper-expensive, non White Sox retention "quality" veteran. Because Jermaine Dye, AJ Pierzynski, Tadahito Iguchi, El Duque, Freddy Garcia, Paul Konerko and Mark Buehrle, etc., would all disagree with you. Rios and Peavy weren't signed by the Sox. Before Dunn, the last really big busts were David Wells (one year deal), Alberte Belle (not statistically bad at all, many "junk" numbers when the team was out of contention, but still not a good move overall for the team chemistry) and Jaime Navarro. Edited September 12, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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