... it's about time

[TheBigHurt]

Let's face it. If not for 2005, there wouldn't be a single Sox fan on earth clamoring for Ozzie to return or playing the "it's not his fault" card. That's all it comes down to. When a Ozzie backer is looking through their DVD collection and they happen to come across the '05 World Series DVD, they're instantly paralyzed with overwhelming nostalgia.

 

I dunno, must be. There's SOME weird reason the usual few around here still REFUSE to accept the fact that Ozzie's managing is terrible. Nah, managers make no impact on the game at all so it doesn't matter, right? I cringe every time someone makes that argument because it's flat out idiotic.

[greg775]

I dunno, must be. There's SOME weird reason the usual few around here still REFUSE to accept the fact that Ozzie's managing is terrible. Nah, managers make no impact on the game at all so it doesn't matter, right? I cringe every time someone makes that argument because it's flat out idiotic.

 

I still challenge anybody on this board to name a CURRENT manager who you think is good.

I hear a lot of names for the job.

Who currently managing a team could pass your test as actually being "good" to "great."

Who is a "good" manager. My guess is you name a guy and you'll get fried on here by anybody who looks into the games as closely as fathom studied the 10 games Ozzie lost us single handedly.

 

I guess the managers of the Bosox and Yankees? They don't count considering they actually have owners with deep pockets and GMs who stockpile rich talent from other teams.

 

Look, there are no good managers in baseball if they are subject to the scrutiny of people on this board.

Edited September 6, 2011 by greg775

[caulfield12]

Obviously, there's no such thing as a perfect manager.

 

But there are managers who show a statistical probability of "outplaying" their predicted wins and losses based on runs scored and runs given up...the infamous pythagorean method.

 

In that category, Ozzie's actually +3 in the category for 2011. Which is why it's not the best barometer...just ONE tool.

 

However,

 

+7 Bochy-Giants

+6 Roenicke-Brewers

+5 Gibson-DBacks

+5 Gonzalez-Braves

+5 Leyland-Tigers

+5 Gardenhire-Twins

 

The only one from a "bad" team on this list is Gardy, who at least 33% of Twins fans would like to get rid of....it's kind of the inverse of the KW/Guillen situation, where about 2/3rd's are against Bill Smith as GM but the majority want to give Gardenhire at least one or two more years with a 100% healthy team. Getting your club to the playoffs six times in nine years definitely should buy a manager a minimum of two seasons.

 

Ozzie's already had 3 underperforming years in a row, and 4 out of the last 5.

 

 

 

[T R U]

This board is sending me into convulsions. We've got DA who says Greg Walker is by no means responsible for anything that's gone wrong with the White Sox offense. Tex is saying as long as KW provides us with a paper champion in March that his job is completed and anything that happens after that is none of his concern. And now TRU is saying that because Ozzie has had bad players this year (I guess Ozzie is the only manager in the history of baseball that's ever had players underperform?) that he is absolved of all blame for this disaster of a season. Well there you have it. White Sox baseball: where infinity-like job security happens!

 

I didn't say he should have a job for life.. and he hasn't just had bad players, hes had a few of THE worst players in baseball..

[greg775]

I didn't say he should have a job for life.. and he hasn't just had bad players, hes had a few of THE worst players in baseball..

 

Great post. The Sox record is miraculously good considering he has Dunn n Rios.

But many on here amazingly blame him for Dunn n Rios. Sad.

[chw42]

Great post. The Sox record is miraculously good considering he has Dunn n Rios.

But many on here amazingly blame him for Dunn n Rios. Sad.

 

Here's the thing...he didn't have to play Rios or Dunn the way he did.

 

If you think KW forced Ozzie to play them...then how do you explain the White Sox not getting rid of Juan Pierre when Kenny clearly wanted him off the roster?

[chw42]

I still challenge anybody on this board to name a CURRENT manager who you think is good.

I hear a lot of names for the job.

Who currently managing a team could pass your test as actually being "good" to "great."

Who is a "good" manager. My guess is you name a guy and you'll get fried on here by anybody who looks into the games as closely as fathom studied the 10 games Ozzie lost us single handedly.

 

I guess the managers of the Bosox and Yankees? They don't count considering they actually have owners with deep pockets and GMs who stockpile rich talent from other teams.

 

Look, there are no good managers in baseball if they are subject to the scrutiny of people on this board.

 

Joe Maddon.

 

Look at the lineup he throws out there everyday. The Rays would be in the playoff race if they weren't in the AL East.

 

That Rays team started off worse than the Sox and are 7 games better with a quarter of the salary. They're a superior organization in almost every way - including the GM, the manager, and the coaching staff.

 

There's a reason why a lot of people are clamoring for Dave Martinez. He's in one of the most well-runned organizations in baseball and he's been under a manager in Maddon that applies statistics to his strategy and runs a good clubhouse.

[Texsox]

I dunno, must be. There's SOME weird reason the usual few around here still REFUSE to accept the fact that Ozzie's managing is terrible. Nah, managers make no impact on the game at all so it doesn't matter, right? I cringe every time someone makes that argument because it's flat out idiotic.

 

The same cringe I get when someone makes the idiotic argument that players don't matter.

[Lemon_44]

Joe Maddon.

 

Look at the lineup he throws out there everyday. The Rays would be in the playoff race if they weren't in the AL East.

 

That Rays team started off worse than the Sox and are 7 games better with a quarter of the salary. They're a superior organization in almost every way - including the GM, the manager, and the coaching staff.

 

There's a reason why a lot of people are clamoring for Dave Martinez. He's in one of the most well-runned organizations in baseball and he's been under a manager in Maddon that applies statistics to his strategy and runs a good clubhouse.

Maddon also has the benefit of the probably the best young pitching staff in the AL. You could argue their record should be better considering they have 111 starts from pitchers with an ERA under 3.70. He does a nice job. But his job is made much easier when the biggest decision he has to make what order a rotation of Price, Shields, Hellickson, and Nieman should pitch. I like Maddon, but put him on the Royals, and they are still in 20+ games under .500 and fighting to stay out of last place.

[StrangeSox]

The same cringe I get when someone makes the idiotic argument that players don't matter.

nobody ever says that Tex, and you know it.

[StrangeSox]

I didn't say he should have a job for life.. and he hasn't just had bad players, hes had a few of THE worst players in baseball..

 

He keeps playing them consistently in important spots in the lineup. That's on him.

[southsider2k5]

This board is sending me into convulsions. We've got DA who says Greg Walker is by no means responsible for anything that's gone wrong with the White Sox offense. Tex is saying as long as KW provides us with a paper champion in March that his job is completed and anything that happens after that is none of his concern. And now TRU is saying that because Ozzie has had bad players this year (I guess Ozzie is the only manager in the history of baseball that's ever had players underperform?) that he is absolved of all blame for this disaster of a season. Well there you have it. White Sox baseball: where infinity-like job security happens!

 

To be fair, this is a pretty left-wing group of posters...

[LittleHurt05]

Joe Maddon.

 

Look at the lineup he throws out there everyday. The Rays would be in the playoff race if they weren't in the AL East.

 

That Rays team started off worse than the Sox and are 7 games better with a quarter of the salary. They're a superior organization in almost every way - including the GM, the manager, and the coaching staff.

 

There's a reason why a lot of people are clamoring for Dave Martinez. He's in one of the most well-runned organizations in baseball and he's been under a manager in Maddon that applies statistics to his strategy and runs a good clubhouse.

 

Longoria, Zobrist, Joyce, Jennings, Damon, Kotchman, Upton. That's better than anything the Sox have.

 

Shields, Price, Hellickson, Davis, Niemann. One of the best rotations in the game.

 

Maddon is a good manager, but let's not act like he doesn't have any talent on his team. They are screwed because they play in the AL East though and nobody cares about baseball in Florida.

[ILMOU]

Whatever happens with the front office changes in the offseason, it's been made pretty clear this year, to me at least, that KW doesn't have all of the roster control powers normally bestowed upon a GM.

 

I'd like to see an explanation from JR of how things are designed to work in this org., but I won't hold my breath.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Stan Bahnsen

[Marty34]

Whatever happens with the front office changes in the offseason, it's been made pretty clear this year, to me at least, that KW doesn't have all of the roster control powers normally bestowed upon a GM.

 

There's nothing that leads me to believe that he does not. Bigger problem is, Kenny making spur of the moment decisions when he's angry. Wanting to get rid of Pierre and Walker. I wonder if his anger at Nationals GM, Mike Rizzo, at the trade deadline last year is the reason Hudson is in Arizona.

 

[ILMOU]

There's nothing that leads me to believe that he does not. Bigger problem is, Kenny making spur of the moment decisions when he's angry. Wanting to get rid of Pierre and Walker. I wonder if his anger at Nationals GM, Mike Rizzo, at the trade deadline last year is the reason Hudson is in Arizona.

 

Oh, these are bad ideas? I wasn't aware.

 

Don't make me tell you how empty Pierre's OBP is, even with his dramatic improvement from June onward. A lead off hitter who can't get into scoring position with either his bat OR his legs isn't really getting the job done.

[Marty34]

Oh, these are bad ideas? I wasn't aware.

 

Don't make me tell you how empty Pierre's OBP is, even with his dramatic improvement from June onward. A lead off hitter who can't get into scoring position with either his bat OR his legs isn't really getting the job done.

 

If ONLY Pierre was the biggest problem.

[Texsox]

I dunno, must be. There's SOME weird reason the usual few around here still REFUSE to accept the fact that Ozzie's managing is terrible. Nah, managers make no impact on the game at all so it doesn't matter, right? I cringe every time someone makes that argument because it's flat out idiotic.

 

 

nobody ever says that Tex, and you know it.

 

I do know no one said that just like no one said the manager makes no impact on the game and doesn't matter. Of course the manager has an impact, it is the level of impact that the argument comes from. I place Oz 4th or 5th on the responsibity list, others place him higher or lower. Players can overcome bad decisions better than managers can overcome bad players.

[NorthSideSox72]

I do know no one said that just like no one said the manager makes no impact on the game and doesn't matter. Of course the manager has an impact, it is the level of impact that the argument comes from. I place Oz 4th or 5th on the responsibity list, others place him higher or lower. Players can overcome bad decisions better than managers can overcome bad players.

So what exactly, in your view, would be the types of things that would make you start to put problems onto a manager?

 

[BigSqwert]

I do know no one said that just like no one said the manager makes no impact on the game and doesn't matter. Of course the manager has an impact, it is the level of impact that the argument comes from. I place Oz 4th or 5th on the responsibity list, others place him higher or lower. Players can overcome bad decisions better than managers can overcome bad players.

 

This is getting eerily similar to the whole "Greg Walker has no effect on players" argument. Why even have a manager? Just stick a cardboard cutout of Casey Stengel on the bench,

[Marty34]

Marc Silverman reported on his radio show this morning that chairman Reinsdorf will make a contract offer to Guillen when the team returns home.

[BigSqwert]

Marc Silverman reported on his radio show this morning that chairman Reinsdorf will make a contract offer to Guillen when the team returns home.

LMAO

 

I hope that's false news. If not, they lost a paying customer until his contract expires.

[southsider2k5]

Marc Silverman reported on his radio show this morning that chairman Reinsdorf will make a contract offer to Guillen when the team returns home.

 

Great, so Kenny is out the door. I guess the writing has been on the wall as JR has undercut his authority at many turns.

[BigSqwert]

Who the hell would want to be a GM for this moronic owner who lets the manager run the show?

[southsider2k5]

Who the hell would want to be a GM for this moronic owner who lets the manager run the show?

 

There will be plenty, just no big names.