... it's about time

[Balta1701]

Then explain how Rios had a great start of the gate last year, how Paulie, seemed to be ok.. as well. Didn't Carlos Q also come out of the gate swinging hot?

 

Also Dunn's first series in CLE, didn't seem to affect his performance at all.

 

I don't buy your theory...

I thinkbrios worked hard coming into 2010 after he had that terrible 09 and then partied his way into 2011.

[VictoryMC98]

I thinkbrios worked hard coming into 2010 after he had that terrible 09 and then partied his way into 2011.

 

So I understand... Ozzie had zero to do with Rios's either 10 or 11 correct?

[Balta1701]

So I understand... Ozzie had zero to do with Rios's either 10 or 11 correct?

He might well have gotten on Rios's case coming in to 2010. I think he let him have it easy coming into 2011.

[VictoryMC98]

He might well have gotten on Rios's case coming in to 2010. I think he let him have it easy coming into 2011.

 

But, you don't know for sure correct?

[Texsox]

Here's gonna be a mind blowing answer.

 

Its the managers job to figure that out for his players. Even the most motivated athlete migt not do what is best to get himself going. A managers (and coaches) job is to figure that riddle out.

 

No, not mindblowing from a macro view, I'll agree with you. but from a micro view, using Dunn, I don't. He's a multi-year veteran. Shouldn't he know and articulate that to the coaching staff? And if it really is up to the coaching staff, and someone who has been playing at the highest level can't figure out how they themselves best prepare, shouldn't we then give Oz another chance at figuring it out for Dunn? I mean if Dunn doesn't know how to best prepare after playing ball for a couple decades isn't it unfair to expect Oz to figure it out immediately?

[Balta1701]

If it was fair, then it would be an easy job.

[Texsox]

So Dunn isn't expected to know how he best prepares for a season or game, but the manager is?

[VictoryMC98]

Balta, I think you are drawing at straws trying to find anything you can bad and pin it on Ozzie.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Balta, I think you are drawing at straws trying to find anything you can bad and pin it on Ozzie.

I can do it easier if you want.

 

3 years, $325 million payroll, .500 record, 0 division titles.

 

I said all along that's the only way to fairly evaluate the manager was w-l in aggregate. He's utterly failed at his job to win.

 

I'm now trying to figure out why. He's gone because of the losses. Now the job is to figure out what went wrong.

[VictoryMC98]

I can do it easier if you want.

 

3 years, $325 million payroll, .500 record, 0 division titles.

 

I said all along that's the only way to fairly evaluate the manager was w-l in aggregate. He's utterly failed at his job to win.

 

I'm now trying to figure out why. He's gone because of the losses. Now the job is to figure out what went wrong.

 

So the GM handing out those contracts like candy isn't at all to blame? ( yes I know some were acquired via trades, waivers). For some reason you give him a free pass.. Why?

 

IMO, there are ZERO managers out there that could have turned this club into a winner this year.. ZERO, it is just built bad.

 

[Balta1701]

So the GM handing out those contracts like candy isn't at all to blame? ( yes I know some were acquired via trades, waivers). For some reason you give him a free pass.. Why?

 

IMO, there are ZERO managers out there that could have turned this club into a winner this year.. ZERO, it is just built bad.

Because I don't know how many of the decisions were kenny and how many were jerry and how many were Ozzie.

 

Kennys job, IMO, depends entirely on what he told the chairman at te start of the offseason last year. If he said there's a 75% chance of failure and the chairman said to spend the money anyway, then Kenny passed the failed decisions upstairs.

 

Personally I think Kenny should have resigned in protest of the fact that he couldn't fire his manager or even hitting coach on his own.

[Texsox]

I can do it easier if you want.

 

3 years, $325 million payroll, .500 record, 0 division titles.

 

I said all along that's the only way to fairly evaluate the manager was w-l in aggregate. He's utterly failed at his job to win.

 

I'm now trying to figure out why. He's gone because of the losses. Now the job is to figure out what went wrong.

 

That is far better than suggesting that Dunn shouldn't know how to prepare for a season. If my performance was earning me $$,$$$,$$$ I sure as hell would learn how to prepare instead of relying on coaches and manager.

 

The GM put on the field a team that should have won the division. No one could predict how poorly a major piece played. I find it very easy to give KW a pass.

[Texsox]

So the GM handing out those contracts like candy isn't at all to blame? ( yes I know some were acquired via trades, waivers). For some reason you give him a free pass.. Why?

 

IMO, there are ZERO managers out there that could have turned this club into a winner this year.. ZERO, it is just built bad.

 

Kenny spent the money necessary to field a team that should have won the division. He didn't spend X on someone and then was not able to spend Y on another. he put the pieces together and some of them failed beyond anyone's realistic expectations.

[VictoryMC98]

Kenny spent the money necessary to field a team that should have won the division. He didn't spend X on someone and then was not able to spend Y on another. he put the pieces together and some of them failed beyond anyone's realistic expectations.

 

So do you blame Lou Penilla and Mike Quady for the failures of the Cubs?

[Balta1701]

So do you blame Lou Penilla and Mike Quady for the failures of the Cubs?

I definitely think Pinella failed to have that team ready for playoff time.

[Texsox]

Which is easy to say but hard to quantify. If a player said my former coaches did a better job of getting me ready to play, that is why I am hitting 80 points below my career average. What would people say?

[VictoryMC98]

I definitely think Pinella failed to have that team ready for playoff time.

 

I was referencing the same time period as the Sox. I agree once the 08 Cubs got there, it was up to Lou.. which is different than the 08 Sox.

[Dick Allen]

If given the resources someone very ordinary could put together a terrific team on paper. The games aren't played on paper. The real good GMs, while always having their misses are best at projections. KW has been burned by his in recent years, at least when it comes to selecting hitters. Quentin was a home run, the rest the past 3 years, a huge swing and a miss.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Texsox]

If given the resources someone very ordinary could put together a terrific team on paper. The games aren't played on paper. The real good GMs, while always having their misses are best at projections. KW has been burned by his in recent years, at least when it comes to selecting hitters. Quentin was a home run, the rest the past 3 years, a huge swing and a miss.

 

The games aren't played on paper, but that is the only way a GM can be scored. No one could have projected the kind of season Dunn is having. Kenny went after the best available guys and built a team that should have won this division. There wasn't too many other choices.

[Dick Allen]

The games aren't played on paper, but that is the only way a GM can be scored. No one could have projected the kind of season Dunn is having. Kenny went after the best available guys and built a team that should have won this division. There wasn't too many other choices.

Would you determine the best guy drafting people is the guy who selected the highest ranked guys or the guy that selected the guys that eventually performed the best?

[Texsox]

Would you determine the best guy drafting people is the guy who selected the highest ranked guys or the guy that selected the guys that eventually performed the best?

 

Neither and both.

[mmmmmbeeer]

If given the resources someone very ordinary could put together a terrific team on paper. The games aren't played on paper. The real good GMs, while always having their misses are best at projections. KW has been burned by his in recent years, at least when it comes to selecting hitters. Quentin was a home run, the rest the past 3 years, a huge swing and a miss.

 

So projecting three players in their prime to continue to perform (Peavy, Rios, Dunn) was poor evaluation? We aren't talking about three guys that are 35 years old or three guys without proven track records (Rios is debatable), we're talking about three solid players. With Peavy, specifically, you're implying that Kenny should have known that Peavy would have a freaking muscle detach in his back (first time in MLB history)?

 

If we pull up threads from before Spring Training, there was far and away a sense that the offseason was the most successful the Sox have had in years. There was a sense that this team would run away with the division. There was a sense amongst baseball analysts in the media that the Sox would dominate the Central. To now say that KW didn't field a solid roster, in hindsight after abysmal performances by 4 key players, is completely unfair. As Tex mentioned, I, too, find it rather easy to excuse KW of any fault for this debacle.

[Jordan4life_2007]

So projecting three players in their prime to continue to perform (Peavy, Rios, Dunn) was poor evaluation? We aren't talking about three guys that are 35 years old or three guys without proven track records (Rios is debatable), we're talking about three solid players. With Peavy, specifically, you're implying that Kenny should have known that Peavy would have a freaking muscle detach in his back (first time in MLB history)?

 

If we pull up threads from before Spring Training, there was far and away a sense that the offseason was the most successful the Sox have had in years. There was a sense that this team would run away with the division. There was a sense amongst baseball analysts in the media that the Sox would dominate the Central. To now say that KW didn't field a solid roster, in hindsight after abysmal performances by 4 key players, is completely unfair. As Tex mentioned, I, too, find it rather easy to excuse KW of any fault for this debacle.

 

Five missed postseasons in the last six years. This isn't just about this year. This organization has been in a slow decline ever since the '05 World Series. s***, if Jerry Owens doesn't get hurt in spring training, we probably don't win the division in '08. Everybody knows Owens was Ozzie's boy toy and only injury forced him to go with CQ.

[Dick Allen]

So projecting three players in their prime to continue to perform (Peavy, Rios, Dunn) was poor evaluation? We aren't talking about three guys that are 35 years old or three guys without proven track records (Rios is debatable), we're talking about three solid players. With Peavy, specifically, you're implying that Kenny should have known that Peavy would have a freaking muscle detach in his back (first time in MLB history)?

 

If we pull up threads from before Spring Training, there was far and away a sense that the offseason was the most successful the Sox have had in years. There was a sense that this team would run away with the division. There was a sense amongst baseball analysts in the media that the Sox would dominate the Central. To now say that KW didn't field a solid roster, in hindsight after abysmal performances by 4 key players, is completely unfair. As Tex mentioned, I, too, find it rather easy to excuse KW of any fault for this debacle.

You can talk all you want about Soxtalk's consensus, the bottom line is no one on Soxtalk gets paid over $1 million a year to put together a roster. I loved the Peavy trade, but it was a huge financial commitment and he was pretty hurt when acquired and had some issues with injuries previously. If his lat didn't detach, perhaps another injury would have occurred. The Blue Jays were doing cartwheels when Rios was claimed on waivers, and the Sox went from not wanting to pay Jim Thome $1.5 million because they had no room for a DH to paying a guy who previously stated he wanted nothing to do with being a DH, $56 million for 4 years to DH. It would have been impossible to project the size of the fall of Dunn's performance, but projecting less production wouldn't have been that difficult.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Dick Allen

[mmmmmbeeer]

Five missed postseasons in the last six years. This isn't just about this year. This organization has been in a slow decline ever since the '05 World Series. s***, if Jerry Owens doesn't get hurt in spring training, we probably don't win the division in '08. Everybody knows Owens was Ozzie's boy toy and only injury forced him to go with CQ.

 

This was the all-in year and the year that will likely cause someone to lose their job. Had they won this year, neither KW or OG would be on the hot seat. It is my opinion that KW had this franchise set up to win this season and save not only his own job but also his manager's. OG hasn't done a single thing this season (again my opinion) to uphold his end of the bargain.