Dunn and Rios

[fathom]

Remember when certain members of the media would say that "one person doesn't make that big of a difference in a lineup". Well, I went back and looked at the 31 games this season we've lost by one or two runs, and I calculated the stats for Rios and Dunn.

 

Rios is 25 for 123 in those games (.204 bavg) with one HR and 4 RBI in those games

Dunn is 12 for 94 in thos games (.128 bavg) with 3 HR and 8 RBI in those games

 

You're looking at a team that is on par with the Tigers, if not at the head of the class, if those two could have given us a lot more production in close games.

 

 

[jenksycat]

Remember when certain members of the media would say that "one person doesn't make that big of a difference in a lineup". Well, I went back and looked at the 31 games this season we've lost by one or two runs, and I calculated the stats for Rios and Dunn.

 

Rios is 25 for 123 in those games (.204 bavg) with one HR and 4 RBI in those games

Dunn is 12 for 94 in thos games (.128 bavg) with 3 HR and 8 RBI in those games

 

You're looking at a team that is on par with the Tigers, if not at the head of the class, if those two could have given us a lot more production in close games.

 

Not even "a lot more". If we had a slightly below career average Dunn and a near 2010 Rios, we'd be 5 up right now easily.

 

So depressing

[dyuen]

Remember when certain members of the media would say that "one person doesn't make that big of a difference in a lineup". Well, I went back and looked at the 31 games this season we've lost by one or two runs, and I calculated the stats for Rios and Dunn.

 

Rios is 25 for 123 in those games (.204 bavg) with one HR and 4 RBI in those games

Dunn is 12 for 94 in thos games (.128 bavg) with 3 HR and 8 RBI in those games

 

You're looking at a team that is on par with the Tigers, if not at the head of the class, if those two could have given us a lot more production in close games.

nice research

terrible hitting

 

what are the numbers since say july or so when it was clear these guys were never going to hit this year and a change should have been made?

[TitoMB345]

In the end, maybe we will thank Rios and Done. They could be the reason KW and Ozzie are fired and this organization can finally move forward. But who knows, I still think they could both be back.

[caulfield12]

nice research

terrible hitting

 

what are the numbers since say july or so when it was clear these guys were never going to hit this year and a change should have been made?

 

 

Post All-Star break...when they made their compelling "Braveheart-ish" vows to lead the team

 

Rios 31/142, 2 HR, 12 RBI's, .218 BA, 566 OPS

Dunn 17/99, 2 HR, 6 RBI's, .172 BA, 523 OPS

 

 

[Kyyle23]

Post All-Star break...when they made their compelling "Braveheart-ish" vows to lead the team

 

Rios 31/142, 2 HR, 12 RBI's, .218 BA, 566 OPS

Dunn 17/99, 2 HR, 6 RBI's, .172 BA, 523 OPS

 

Hey, they said they were going to put the team on their backs and carry the team.

 

 

They never specified which team

[Milkman delivers]

Remember when certain members of the media would say that "one person doesn't make that big of a difference in a lineup". Well, I went back and looked at the 31 games this season we've lost by one or two runs, and I calculated the stats for Rios and Dunn.

 

Rios is 25 for 123 in those games (.204 bavg) with one HR and 4 RBI in those games

Dunn is 12 for 94 in thos games (.128 bavg) with 3 HR and 8 RBI in those games

 

You're looking at a team that is on par with the Tigers, if not at the head of the class, if those two could have given us a lot more production in close games.

 

So, you're telling us that Dunn has actually been even less important than he's seemed?

[Balta1701]

Of course there's cause and effect here. The fee games where these 2 actually produced were probably not close games.

[greg775]

nice research

terrible hitting

 

what are the numbers since say july or so when it was clear these guys were never going to hit this year and a change should have been made?

 

Just like it was clear Juan was never going to hit and a change was not made?

You guys hate my arguments.

I hate one of your most unreasonable arguments. I can't believe some people don't understand you just don't sit Dunn and Rios.

They are going to play and play a lot next season ... and the season after that. They are going to start and play regardless of performance.

And yes they will ruin next season as well.

 

Only way they might sit is if the new manager and GM have a sit down with Jerry and just tell him, "We didn't acquire these two guys. We don't want to play them AT ALL."

Or perhaps the new manager won't even take the job if he has to play the two.

Aside from that, you have to play them.

Edited September 2, 2011 by greg775

[jenksycat]

Just like it was clear Juan was never going to hit and a change was not made?

You guys hate my arguments.

I hate one of your most unreasonable arguments. I can't believe some people don't understand you just don't sit Dunn and Rios.

They are going to play and play a lot next season ... and the season after that. They are going to start and play regardless of performance.

And yes they will ruin next season as well.

 

Only way they might sit is if the new manager and GM have a sit down with Jerry and just tell him, "We didn't acquire these two guys. We don't want to play them AT ALL."

Or perhaps the new manager won't even take the job if he has to play the two.

Aside from that, you have to play them.

 

Only way they sit is if Ozzie is not the manager

[greg775]

Only way they sit is if Ozzie is not the manager

 

Jenks do you even blame Kenny for acquiring Rios, Dunn and Peavy or is this all on Ozzie?

[Real]

I don't put any blame on the GM for acquisitions that I, as a fan, was happy about, namely all 3 of them, and I know I'm not the only one here who was happy when all 3 of those contracts were signed, especially Dunn and Peavy

 

Go back and pull up the Peavy acquisition thread, and look at the posts in that thread, people were happier than pigs in s***, same with Dunn

 

Not everyone was on board for the Rios claim because of how much money he's owed, but after his "decent" year in 2010, with the defense he played, nobody really b****ed about it in the offseason

 

Only this year, have people wanted KW's head on a stake because all 3 of them have underpeformed

 

At some point, you have to start looking at the coaches and players

Edited September 2, 2011 by Real

[knightni]

http://smellslikemascot.blogspot.com/2011/09/roshamblow.html

[Jordan4life_2007]

I don't put any blame on the GM for acquisitions that I, as a fan, was happy about, namely all 3 of them, and I know I'm not the only one here who was happy when all 3 of those contracts were signed, especially Dunn and Peavy

 

Go back and pull up the Peavy acquisition thread, and look at the posts in that thread, people were happier than pigs in s***, same with Dunn

 

Not everyone was on board for the Rios claim because of how much money he's owed, but after his "decent" year in 2010, with the defense he played, nobody really b****ed about it in the offseason

 

Only this year, have people wanted KW's head on a stake because all 3 of them have underpeformed

 

At some point, you have to start looking at the coaches and players

 

Not sure about Peavy, as I don't remember much from that thread. But there were quite a few that were not happy with the Dunn signing. More than I had originally remembered. And KW hasn't done much of anything right the last four years. So the ire that has rightfully been bestowed upon him runs much deeper than those three signings. And quite honestly, it doesn't really matter who thought what at what time or whatever. Barring a miracle, we're going to miss the postseason for the 5th time in 6 years since '05. In a division that does not include a powerhouse (and hasn't since the late 90's Indians teams), like NY, Boston or Philly. That's on the entire organization.

[jenksycat]

Jenks do you even blame Kenny for acquiring Rios, Dunn and Peavy or is this all on Ozzie?

 

Christ man, you really are delusional. This will be my last response.

 

 

KW isn't the manager, Ozzie is. Ozzie makes the lineup. Ozzie has had a fully capable replacement for Rios in De Aza since 7/27, yet Rios has played in 27 games since then. Unacceptable, plain and simple. Rios should have been the 5th OF as of 7/27. That is totally and completely on Ozzie and NOBODY else.

 

As for Dunn, he also has had a perfectly capable replacement sitting on the bench in Lilibridge. 8/1 should have been the last Dunn ever saw the field. But good ol' Ozzie kept him in there, seemingly to spite KW.

 

In his final stroke of genius, ol' spark-plug Ozzie used Vicedo as some sort of 4th grade girl way of getting back at KW. KW knew Ozzie wouldn't play him, so he remained in AAA while Dunn and Rios lined the boxscores with K's and weak grounders to SS.

 

By defending him, you're agreeing that it's more important for our manager to have a cat fight with our GM than to put the best team on the field. I know you won't understand that, but that's what you're doing.

[greg775]

Christ man, you really are delusional. This will be my last response.

 

 

KW isn't the manager, Ozzie is. Ozzie makes the lineup. Ozzie has had a fully capable replacement for Rios in De Aza since 7/27, yet Rios has played in 27 games since then. Unacceptable, plain and simple. Rios should have been the 5th OF as of 7/27. That is totally and completely on Ozzie and NOBODY else.

 

As for Dunn, he also has had a perfectly capable replacement sitting on the bench in Lilibridge. 8/1 should have been the last Dunn ever saw the field. But good ol' Ozzie kept him in there, seemingly to spite KW.

 

In his final stroke of genius, ol' spark-plug Ozzie used Vicedo as some sort of 4th grade girl way of getting back at KW. KW knew Ozzie wouldn't play him, so he remained in AAA while Dunn and Rios lined the boxscores with K's and weak grounders to SS.

 

By defending him, you're agreeing that it's more important for our manager to have a cat fight with our GM than to put the best team on the field. I know you won't understand that, but that's what you're doing.

 

I guess our main disagreement is I feel a manager has to play the guys who are making zillions of dollars and you don't. I can't believe I don't get more support on this from others cause I feel strongly my position is correct.

[TheBigHurt]

I guess our main disagreement is I feel a manager has to play the guys who are making zillions of dollars and you don't. I can't believe I don't get more support on this from others cause I feel strongly my position is correct.

 

It's not correct. You're supposed to put yourself in the best position to win. It's not rocket science.

[greg775]

It's not correct. You're supposed to put yourself in the best position to win. It's not rocket science.

 

Do you realize what you are saying? To bench Rios and Dunn with the money they are making? You don't magically pretend Adam Dunn does not exist.

[balfanman]

Do you realize what you are saying? To bench Rios and Dunn with the money they are making? You don't magically pretend Adam Dunn does not exist.

 

It would be one thing if these two guys were only having down years, putting up numbers that are below their career norms, but above ~220 - 230 batting average lets say. In that case I think that you're correct, they would, and even should (maybe) still be playing. You cannot compare these guys, IMO, to other highly paid players because they are both epically bad. uncharted territory bad in Dunns case, and Rios with his attitude to boot.

 

The problem is two fold. First, their teammates see this and while they're battling for a playoff spot, these two guys definitely do not give the team the best chance of winning the game on any given day. Not even remotely close to the best chance and there are much better options currently on the team. They have to be thinking WTF.

 

Secondly, these two are soooooooo bad that even the casual fan can see this. Many fans have lost interest in the team this season already and decisions like Ozzy made in the 9th inning Wednesday afternoon tells them that they aren't even trying to win, which could drive them away permanently. This affects JR's checkbook tremendously. longterm, much more than having them ride the bench for the rest of the season.

 

In this case, you almost have to pretend that they disappeared for the rest of the year.

[Texsox]

I don't put any blame on the GM for acquisitions that I, as a fan, was happy about, namely all 3 of them, and I know I'm not the only one here who was happy when all 3 of those contracts were signed, especially Dunn and Peavy

 

Go back and pull up the Peavy acquisition thread, and look at the posts in that thread, people were happier than pigs in s***, same with Dunn

 

Not everyone was on board for the Rios claim because of how much money he's owed, but after his "decent" year in 2010, with the defense he played, nobody really b****ed about it in the offseason

 

Only this year, have people wanted KW's head on a stake because all 3 of them have underpeformed

 

At some point, you have to start looking at the coaches and players

 

Those signings were not horrible. And as noted, if one or two of those guys play 85-90% of their historic levels, this team is leading the division. Not a bad season for the GM who has to play the game on paper.

 

 

[Texsox]

Do you realize what you are saying? To bench Rios and Dunn with the money they are making? You don't magically pretend Adam Dunn does not exist.

No this is about the same as a video game.

[hogan873]

I guess our main disagreement is I feel a manager has to play the guys who are making zillions of dollars and you don't. I can't believe I don't get more support on this from others cause I feel strongly my position is correct.

This isn't freaking little league where everyone gets to play and everyone gets a trophy. You do not have to play the players who are not performing. I think we all remember when KW said it doesn't matter how much a guy is making, the best players need to play. But your guy didn't listen and still trots Rios out there, and even puts Dunn in a game-winning situation when everyone (including my dog) knew he would strike out.

 

A manager does not have to play the guys who make the most money. A manager has to put a team on the field that gives you the best chance to win. Ozzie doesn't do that.

[southsider2k5]

http://smellslikemascot.blogspot.com/2011/09/roshamblow.html

[southsider2k5]

 

Those signings were not horrible. And as noted, if one or two of those guys play 85-90% of their historic levels, this team is leading the division. Not a bad season for the GM who has to play the game on paper.

 

That's how I see it. These guys had track records. You could argue that they were taking a chance on Rios returning to his career norms, but with Peavy and Dunn, there had been no real down time in their performances before they got here. It wasn't like Kenny was buying low on them. They got here and they flopped to this point. Heck you can throw Nick Swisher into this category as well.

[Balta1701]

That's how I see it. These guys had track records. You could argue that they were taking a chance on Rios returning to his career norms, but with Peavy and Dunn, there had been no real down time in their performances before they got here. It wasn't like Kenny was buying low on them. They got here and they flopped to this point. Heck you can throw Nick Swisher into this category as well.

The one thing about Peavy though..there was clearly some injury worries going on which the Sox didn't push hard enough on..