Balta1701 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 08:24 PM) Would you rather have Oz making better choices or Dunn and Rios playing at 80% of their career averages? If oz had been making better choices then those 2 would have been platoon players by June and it wouldn't have mattered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 07:30 PM) If oz had been making better choices then those 2 would have been platoon players by June and it wouldn't have mattered. I wish we had the chance to know. And nice dodge of the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 08:51 PM) I wish we had the chance to know. And nice dodge of the question. Has there been a single season where Ozzie has not inexplicably played and protected some player who didn't belong on the field? I'll go to my grave saying Mackowiak in Cf cost us the division in 2006. Rios and Dunn playing and Viciedo, De Aza, and Lillibridge benched or in AAA has cost more games than that this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 07:24 PM) Would you rather have Oz making better choices or Dunn and Rios playing at 80% of their career averages? I think fathom made a nice list a couple months back (maybe a thread on it actually) that had Ozzie losing 10 games for us cause of his decision making/tactics (and I'm not even talking about Dunn and Rios or batting orders, but actual in-game managing, which I've noticed for years with him). Edited September 6, 2011 by SoxAce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The problem with the list IIRC is we'll never know what the other decision would have resulted in. Oz had a terrible year, perhaps his worst year as a manager. In my opinion, if Dunn and/or Rios play close to their career averages, this team is in the playoffs. Their performance was much more of a factor than Oz. I'm not saying Oz doesn't share in the blame. I'm not saying he's done a good job. I'm saying players make a much bigger difference than the manager. I'd rather make poor decisions with good players that great decisions with mediocre. Of course good decisions with good players wins championships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The flaw then continues to be the fact that Rios and Dunn have never been close to this bad before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 07:56 PM) Has there been a single season where Ozzie has not inexplicably played and protected some player who didn't belong on the field? I'll go to my grave saying Mackowiak in Cf cost us the division in 2006. Rios and Dunn playing and Viciedo, De Aza, and Lillibridge benched or in AAA has cost more games than that this year. I'm surprised, I'm certain you mean Oz's decision to play Mackowiak cost the division, not how Mack played. It's the decision, not the player ;-) And no, he's done it every season I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 09:12 PM) I'm surprised, I'm certain you mean Oz's decision to play Mackowiak cost the division, not how Mack played. It's the decision, not the player ;-) And no, he's done it every season I can think of. Mackowiak ctually had one of his better seasons with the bat. The problem was he didn't know how to become twice as fast and get much better jumps in CF. Blaming that on the player is foolish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 08:06 PM) I'd rather make poor decisions with good players that great decisions with mediocre. Of course good decisions with good players wins championships. Hey.. Gardenhire has proven that in this division. (ironically he hasn't been very good either this year, though that is a rarity for him) I agree with you about the second part however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (SoxAce @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 01:24 AM) Hey.. Gardenhire has proven that in this division. (ironically he hasn't been very good either this year, though that is a rarity for him) I agree with you about the second part however. See ... Gardy is no good. Ozzie is no good. All managers suck. Soxtalk won't ever be happy with the skipper. How the hell could it be?? Think logically. Do you guys honestly believe in 2011, in a day and age of all these advanced stats that you guys are going to be happy with ANY manager? Gardy stinks. We know Leland stinks after the past years with their high payroll. They all stink. What manager is going to pass the Soxtalk test after a month????? You tell me. I say with utter confidence NONE Edited September 6, 2011 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) Gardenhire is a good manager that basically had to manage a split-squad lineup every game this season. It's not like he had the option to bench players like Ozzie could have. Edited September 6, 2011 by fathom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 09:40 PM) See ... Gardy is no good. Ozzie is no good. All managers suck. Soxtalk won't ever be happy with the skipper. How the hell could it be?? Think logically. Do you guys honestly believe in 2011, in a day and age of all these advanced stats that you guys are going to be happy with ANY manager? Gardy stinks. We know Leland stinks after the past years with their high payroll. They all stink. What manager is going to pass the Soxtalk test after a month????? You tell me. I say with utter confidence NONE Did you even read my post with Tex or are you talking out of your ass again? I rarely even s*** talk you like alot of posters here as you are very entertaining to read as far as post and have a different view from others obviously, but jesus with this. Edited September 6, 2011 by SoxAce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 02:48 AM) Gardenhire is a good manager that basically had to manage a split-squad lineup every game this season. It's not like he had the option to bench players like Ozzie could have. Ugh. Fathom you are a successful grown man who knows the ways of the world. And you think Ozzie has the option to truly bench $14 mill a year and $12 mill a year which, forgive me if I'm wrong, are what Dunn n Rios are making? Just because of one sentence uttered by KW in the media? That he gave Oz his blessing to bench the 2 megamillionares? Edited September 6, 2011 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 09:40 PM) See ... Gardy is no good. Ozzie is no good. All managers suck. Soxtalk won't ever be happy with the skipper. How the hell could it be?? Think logically. Do you guys honestly believe in 2011, in a day and age of all these advanced stats that you guys are going to be happy with ANY manager? Gardy stinks. We know Leland stinks after the past years with their high payroll. They all stink. What manager is going to pass the Soxtalk test after a month????? You tell me. I say with utter confidence NONE One who doesn't suck at his job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 02:50 AM) Did you even read my post with Tex or are you talking out of your ass again? I rarely even s*** talk you like alot of posters here as you are very entertaining to read as far as post and have a different view from others obviously, but jesus with this. Apparently I misread something. I thought you guys were blasting Gardy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 03:51 AM) Ugh. Fathom you are a successful grown man who knows the ways of the world. And you think Ozzie has the option to truly bench $14 mill a year and $12 mill a year which, forgive me if I'm wrong, are what Dunn n Rios are making? Just because of one sentence uttered by KW in the media? That he gave Oz his blessing to bench the 2 megamillionares? Yes, he absolutely did give Ozzie the blessing to do it. Greg, it seems like you believe everything Ozzie says in the press, but the one time KW says something in the media, you find it convenient to think he's lying. There was absolutely no benefit for KW to lie about telling Ozzie to bench players regardless of salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 02:51 AM) One who doesn't suck at his job. My point is name the manager. After a month of games, this board will point out beyond a shadow of a doubt he sucks at his job. (Unless we open up 20-10 or some awesome start out of the gate or have a clint hurdle-like first half). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Greg, I bet last year you would have never predicted that soxtalk posters would be as understanding and forgiving about our closer, Sergio Santos, blowing 5 saves in pretty terrible fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 02:56 AM) Greg, I bet last year you would have never predicted that soxtalk posters would be as understanding and forgiving about our closer, Sergio Santos, blowing 5 saves in pretty terrible fashion. Yeah, how many did Bobby blow? But Bob was the devil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 02:58 AM) Yeah, how many did Bobby blow? But Bob was the devil. 4 last year, but you also forget how absolutely worthless he was in tied games/2 inning outings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Actually 5 isn't bad through the course of a season when you think of how many times a closer trots out there. I know everybody wants the guy to be perfect. What Valverde has done is amazing. Smart of Tigers to not waste that kind of a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 09:50 PM) Did you even read my post with Tex or are you talking out of your ass again? I rarely even s*** talk you like alot of posters here as you are very entertaining to read as far as post and have a different view from others obviously, but jesus with this. Seeing greg tell anyone other than a third grader to "think logically" is incredibly insulting. It would be like Ozzie telling someone to speak English better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 04:42 AM) Seeing greg tell anyone other than a third grader to "think logically" is incredibly insulting. It would be like Ozzie telling someone to speak English better. I hope you handle people who disagree with you better in real life than you do on an anonymous message board. I think it's safe to say not everything you believe is correct regarding the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 09:01 PM) 4 last year, but you also forget how absolutely worthless he was in tied games/2 inning outings. Not to mention that most of those games in 2010, Jenks had a "more comfortable" 2-3 run lead. There wasn't a huge number of one-run leads that he preserved successfully. Edited September 6, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 09:51 PM) Ugh. Fathom you are a successful grown man who knows the ways of the world. And you think Ozzie has the option to truly bench $14 mill a year and $12 mill a year which, forgive me if I'm wrong, are what Dunn n Rios are making? Just because of one sentence uttered by KW in the media? That he gave Oz his blessing to bench the 2 megamillionares? So why is it that he can bench them now...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.