Balta1701 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 06:39 PM) You don't think you can get a good return for the players I'd trade? If you want a good return then you're not getting back players who can contribute in 2012. If you want players who can contribute in 2012, you're getting a weak return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 05:39 PM) You don't think you can get a good return for the players I'd trade? That's moot. I can't assume what we could/would get back. But that every day lineup (Lilli at SS?) and pitching staff is deplorable. That's 100 losses - easily. I don't mind a rebuild. But I don't even know what you call what you're proposing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 05:42 PM) If you want a good return then you're not getting back players who can contribute in 2012. If you want players who can contribute in 2012, you're getting a weak return. I think you can have a mixture. Quentin and Danks value is lower because of free-agency in 2013. If the Yankees go out in the first round, I'd imagine they'd give up a decent amount for him. Particularly if the Red Sox were in the bidding as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 05:31 PM) Rebuild the pitching staff mostly through those trades. If Beckham, Rios, and Dunn don't hit again next year they aren't winning anything with Danks, Floyd, Ramirez anyway. If they do hit, I believe they'd at least be able to contend while rebuilding their staff. Lillibridge doesn't have to stay at short, but it would be where he would be the most useful. The pitching staff, particularly in terms of starters, is the team's biggest strength. That is what you want to rebuild? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 06:48 PM) I think you can have a mixture. Quentin and Danks value is lower because of free-agency in 2013. If the Yankees go out in the first round, I'd imagine they'd give up a decent amount for him. Particularly if the Red Sox were in the bidding as well. Simply naming teams doesn't change my point. If you're trying to take on young talent, then you're going to need to give that young talent some time to develop and likely struggle at the big league level. Think about Jon Danks and Gavin Floyd in 2007, Gordon Beckham the last 3 years, Zach Stewart's last few starts, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I agree with Balta here. You're not getting a Brett Lawrie, a Mike Trout, or a Matt Moore back for anything we have to dangle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 05:51 PM) The pitching staff, particularly in terms of starters, is the team's biggest strength. That is what you want to rebuild? Yes. I want to have a championship-level pitching staff in place by the time the big contracts are off the books 2014-15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 06:01 PM) I agree with Balta here. You're not getting a Brett Lawrie, a Mike Trout, or a Matt Moore back for anything we have to dangle. Floyd doesn't compare with Marcum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) Unfortunately the best and worst move the Sox can make is getting rid of/keeping Buerhle. Pierre gone. Frasor gone (get the Type B pick). Thornton gone. Both replaced by Reed , Infante, Santiago whoever. Impossible to move Peavy, Rios, Dunn unless packaged with someone like Sale but that defeats the purpose of having good young talent to replace old expensive talent. If Buerhle /Quentin et al are traded/unsigned its a direct result of keeping Peavy , Dunn , Rios and those guys are the most despised guys by fandom for big contracts and under performance . Attendance will be even worse next year unless all 3 of the sucky 3 turn it around. Not looking good at all so I expect payroll to be somewhere between $15-20 million less next year. Sale, Humber and Stewart almost certainly will get a shot at the rotation considering they all are cheap and the Sox need to maximize value in their current state. Danks will be shopped . I know people suggest Floyd as the greater trade piece based on contract but something has to be done with Danks. So look for the Sox to get more young arms in any trades they make. I think the current infield stays intact IF Ozzie and coaches are gone. A lot depends on who is the manager next year. Edited September 6, 2011 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 06:06 PM) Floyd doesn't compare with Marcum? Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Honestly...if you could find a taker...I wouldn't cry dealing AJ either. For my first post... I would not mind AJ being the backup next year.. and teaching Flowers everything he can.. minus how not to throw out runners! IMO Catching is the one thing the Sox have in 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 03:09 PM) Chris Sale was pick 13. Damn. Was thinking around 7. Still, points the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 03:15 PM) Thats a last place team Marty. I would rather keep some of the guys you suggested we trade and just let Buehrle go With that line up, no way is Marty Joe Cowley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 06:06 PM) Floyd doesn't compare with Marcum? Unfortunately no. Marcum has performed way better in the world's toughest division. Floyd might actually have the stuff to be as good, but he can't perform consistently enough with it, and at this point in this career, no reason to expect differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 As for Sale being a starter, don't they have to stretch him out? How is that going to happen? It should have been done this year. I'm not ready to crown Santos the closer. He's showing signs of being a mental midget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 05:09 PM) I wasn't necessarily looking for specific player names... more, what positions are you trying to upgrade? Because your team as stated has a bunch of downgrades and no upgrades. Only way that works is if you think Lillibridge can do better overall than Alexei, and if you think the great majority of players will bounce back and improve next year. I think the reality of our situation is that you cannot go into next season without downgrading. It's just an incredibly difficult task to shave ~$25-30 million off a payroll (pending who we bring back) while still upgrading the roster with little impact talent ready in the minors. If we only have to shave a few million off while we wait for some contracts to come off the books, it'll probably still be difficult to tread water let alone to definitively upgrade the team. It's hard to say anything for sure without knowing how much the owners truly plan on cutting back payroll, but a very safe bet, in my opinion, is that we enter next season worse on paper than we leave this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanne Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 05:31 PM) For my first post... I would not mind AJ being the backup next year.. and teaching Flowers everything he can.. Good luck with that....welcome aboard btw! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 06:31 PM) For my first post... I would not mind AJ being the backup next year.. and teaching Flowers everything he can.. minus how not to throw out runners! IMO Catching is the one thing the Sox have in 2012. $6 million dollar backup C? You trade AJ last month if the opportunity arises. Hell, throw in a million or so if you have to. Edited September 7, 2011 by Jordan4life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 06:46 PM) As for Sale being a starter, don't they have to stretch him out? How is that going to happen? It should have been done this year. I'm not ready to crown Santos the closer. He's showing signs of being a mental midget. ...? Because of the Tigers game? There have been plenty of times when he's come right at Miggy. He just lost that match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 06:07 PM) ...? Because of the Tigers game? There have been plenty of times when he's come right at Miggy. He just lost that match. Nope. There have been instance before and also the first game of the dh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 $6 million dollar backup C? You trade AJ last month if the opportunity arises. Hell, throw in a million or so if you have to. Well I didn't look at the salary standpoint, so I agree if you can trade him great.. I currently don't know all the guys salaries and such. Thanks for pointing that out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 03:43 PM) Way too hard to tell what WILL happen at this point... so here is what I would WANT to happen... Fire Ozzie and basically the entire coaching staff (Except Cooper, who I would strongly suggest the new manager retain) Promote KW to some Team Prez type position, bring Hahn to GM, and let him pick his staff, including #1 input on new manager and coaches Let Pierre, Castro and Pena go If the new manager is OK with it, offer Vizquel a position as a bench coach or base coach, and de facto infield coach Re-sign M56 if at all possible (I will assume in this scenario that it is doable at about 3 years) Keep PK14, Beckham (whose chances I like to improve with the bat), Alexei, Viciedo, Rios (who I think is basically untradeable and may improve with dfferent leadership), Dunn (also untradeable), De Aza, Lillibridge, AJP and Flowers Rotation of M56, Peavy (who I think will be better next year), Floyd, Sale, and one of Humber/Stewart (with the other as the 6th man, and long man in pen) If you can trade Ozzie for Lo Mo, do it. But I will assume not, so... Use Thornton, TCQ, Danks and Morel* as trade bait to get a strong LF (and possibly upgrade 3B if you can, in which case, trade Morel) Try to trade one of the experienced and semi-expensive bullpen arms (Frasor, Crain, Ohman), as part of the LF and 3B upgrades Bullpen of Santos (closer), 2 of Crain/Frasor/Ohman (2 setups), Santiago (left specialist), Reed (MR), Stewart/Humber (long man and 6th starter), and either the remaining Crain/Frasor/Ohman or Infante or some other acquisition as the other MR Bench of Flowers, Lillibridge, Tyler Kuhn and Alejandro De Aza (who would pretty much platoon with the other OF's, making a 4 OF rotation of sorts) ...By my math, but trading Thornton, TCQ and Danks, you save about $18M-$20M in 2012 to go towards M56 and the new LF. I figure M56 will get $12M/year for 2-3 years, if I had to guess. If the new LF is a younger guy and not a pricey free agent, that should be plenty of money to cover. And that leaves the team, more or less, at an even salary level with 2011. Not sure if JR will go for that much salary though. Just what I'd hope is all. AND MY QUESTION TO THE BOARD... who are some good OF candidates that might be available in a trade involving some or all of TCQ/Danks/Thornton? Young players/prospects would be my guess as a return. My targets would be Logan Morrison, Josh Reddick, Travis Snider, Jeremy Moore, Yonder Alonso. Edited September 7, 2011 by bucket-of-suck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 07:09 PM) Nope. There have been instance before and also the first game of the dh. Cabrera is 2/8 against Sergio with 2 HR's, 2 RBI, and 3 Strikeouts. I love calling our rookie closer (who was fielding ground balls 3 years ago and has been one of the best closers in the game this year) a "mental midget". High high comedy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 12:46 AM) As for Sale being a starter, don't they have to stretch him out? How is that going to happen? It should have been done this year. I'm not ready to crown Santos the closer. He's showing signs of being a mental midget. Santos has been excellent. I'd give him an A for the season. I saw that fastball tonight that everybody told me exists. He's blown what, five saves? That's actually pretty good if he's saved 25 of 'em. Nobody else on our staff could have had that ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 10:02 PM) Cabrera is 2/8 against Sergio with 2 HR's, 2 RBI, and 3 Strikeouts. I love calling our rookie closer (who was fielding ground balls 3 years ago and has been one of the best closers in the game this year) a "mental midget". High high comedy Sorry, I'm not a buyer yet. Let's see what happens next season if Coop's boys can handle the pressure. This is the Sox MO for the 21st century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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