greg775 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 03:53 AM) Sorry, I'm not a buyer yet. Let's see what happens next season if Coop's boys can handle the pressure. This is the Sox MO for the 21st century. Do you admit Sergio has had a great season as closer? He has imploded a few times but who hasn't on this s***ty team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 11:00 PM) Do you admit Sergio has had a great season as closer? He has imploded a few times but who hasn't on this s***ty team? Some saves are padded. Me might have decent stuff but not the brain to match it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 11:23 PM) Some saves are padded. Me might have decent stuff but not the brain to match it. Not reactionary at all to 1 bad game I assume. Not like he's gone entire months without giving up a run Edited September 7, 2011 by Jenksy Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 11:23 PM) Some saves are padded. Me might have decent stuff but not the brain to match it. The best strikeout pitch and the game and a powerful fastball are "decent"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 11:56 PM) The best strikeout pitch and the game and a powerful fastball are "decent"? He blew a save the other day in a big game, he's not fit for the big leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanne Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 10:23 PM) Some saves are padded. Me might have decent stuff but not the brain to match it. would you rather have Jenks back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 04:23 AM) Some saves are padded. Me might have decent stuff but not the brain to match it. OM gosh. I feel the urge to now become a passionate Sergio Internet backer in my same mold as a Bobby backer, Oz backer, Juan backer and Wise backer. My grade for Sergio this season is A- but I wouldn't argue with A. Edited September 7, 2011 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Fantl916 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 03:00 PM) 4. Danks doesn't sign long term nor is he traded. Just a gut feeling, but with Boras as his agent i dont foresee him signing long-term unless he goes Weaver on Boras and tells him to get a deal done. His agent is not Boras. (Jeff Berry, same as Buehrles) Edited September 7, 2011 by SoxAce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 03:43 PM) Way too hard to tell what WILL happen at this point... so here is what I would WANT to happen... Fire Ozzie and basically the entire coaching staff (Except Cooper, who I would strongly suggest the new manager retain) Promote KW to some Team Prez type position, bring Hahn to GM, and let him pick his staff, including #1 input on new manager and coaches Let Pierre, Castro and Pena go If the new manager is OK with it, offer Vizquel a position as a bench coach or base coach, and de facto infield coach Re-sign M56 if at all possible (I will assume in this scenario that it is doable at about 3 years) Keep PK14, Beckham (whose chances I like to improve with the bat), Alexei, Viciedo, Rios (who I think is basically untradeable and may improve with dfferent leadership), Dunn (also untradeable), De Aza, Lillibridge, AJP and Flowers Rotation of M56, Peavy (who I think will be better next year), Floyd, Sale, and one of Humber/Stewart (with the other as the 6th man, and long man in pen) If you can trade Ozzie for Lo Mo, do it. But I will assume not, so... Use Thornton, TCQ, Danks and Morel* as trade bait to get a strong LF (and possibly upgrade 3B if you can, in which case, trade Morel) Try to trade one of the experienced and semi-expensive bullpen arms (Frasor, Crain, Ohman), as part of the LF and 3B upgrades Bullpen of Santos (closer), 2 of Crain/Frasor/Ohman (2 setups), Santiago (left specialist), Reed (MR), Stewart/Humber (long man and 6th starter), and either the remaining Crain/Frasor/Ohman or Infante or some other acquisition as the other MR Bench of Flowers, Lillibridge, Tyler Kuhn and Alejandro De Aza (who would pretty much platoon with the other OF's, making a 4 OF rotation of sorts) ...By my math, but trading Thornton, TCQ and Danks, you save about $18M-$20M in 2012 to go towards M56 and the new LF. I figure M56 will get $12M/year for 2-3 years, if I had to guess. If the new LF is a younger guy and not a pricey free agent, that should be plenty of money to cover. And that leaves the team, more or less, at an even salary level with 2011. Not sure if JR will go for that much salary though. Just what I'd hope is all. AND MY QUESTION TO THE BOARD... who are some good OF candidates that might be available in a trade involving some or all of TCQ/Danks/Thornton? I like all those suggestions. I might even allow the next manager full control of his coaches (even Coop) and then not hire anyone who wasn't interested in keeping Cooper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 6, 2011 -> 11:23 PM) Some saves are padded. Me might have decent stuff but not the brain to match it. How does a blown save go with brain power? And what have you ever seen or heard Sergio say or do that leads you to believe he is a "mental midget"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon_44 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) Here's my hope for next year. There has to be someone that will take Rios if the Sox pick up 1/2 to 3/4 of his salary. It will be worth it to get him off the team and will save some money. But getting him off the team alone would be worth it. It may be time to let MB go, only because I don't see him taking a big pay cut to stay, nor should he. But he's probably been the biggest beneficiary of the 6 man rotation. It would be very tough to let him go but you have to at some point. I re-sign Danks to a long term deal. Next, I use Carlos Quentin to acquire Andre Ethier from LA(2 arbitration elg. players). He's playing hurt and has been feuding with management over his injury. My last move, dependant on his health is try to acquire David Wright from the Mets(use Thornton, Morel, spects in a deal). Salaries off the books: Pierre 8.5, MB 14, Rios at 50% 6, Quentin 6,Thornton 5.5 = 40 New salary: Eithier 11( a guess,arb elgible), Danks about a 8 mill raise, Wright 14 = 33 Lineup: LF- Ethier CF- De Aza RF- Viciedo 3B- Wright SS- Ramirez 2B- Beckham 1B- Konerko C- AJ DH- Dunn Bench- Lillibridge, Flowers, Escobar, veteran SP: Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Stewart, Humber RP: Santos, Sale, Ohman, Frasor, Crain, Reed, Infante/Kinney/Rodriguez Edited September 7, 2011 by Lemon_44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 07:36 AM) Here's my hope for next year. There has to be someone that will take Rios if the Sox pick up 1/2 to 3/4 of his salary. It will be worth it to get him off the team and will save some money. But getting him off the team alone would be worth it. It may be time to let MB go, only because I don't see him taking a big pay cut to stay, nor should he. But he's probably been the biggest beneficiary of the 6 man rotation. It would be very tough to let him go but you have to at some point. I re-sign Danks to a long term deal. Next, I use Carlos Quentin to acquire Andre Ethier from LA(2 arbitration elg. players). He's playing hurt and has been feuding with management over his injury. My last move, dependant on his health is try to acquire David Wright from the Mets(use Thornton, Morel, spects in a deal). What good does that do? You are spending $3-4 million more for a player coming off his worst season, that may be a marginal improvement at best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 08:28 AM) How does a blown save go with brain power? And what have you ever seen or heard Sergio say or do that leads you to believe he is a "mental midget"? I'm kinda iffy on this one. It'd be nice to see Sergio get through a game where he has no control on his offspeed stuff and has to just get outs with fastball control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 07:46 AM) I'm kinda iffy on this one. It'd be nice to see Sergio get through a game where he has no control on his offspeed stuff and has to just get outs with fastball control. That's not lack of brains, that's just him being immature as a pitcher. This is a guy who didn't pitch even a full season in the minors, let alone college or beforehand. What you are describing is a perfect example of a learned pitching skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 09:05 AM) That's not lack of brains, that's just him being immature as a pitcher. This is a guy who didn't pitch even a full season in the minors, let alone college or beforehand. What you are describing is a perfect example of a learned pitching skill. I dunno, one might consider those 2 things identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 07:46 AM) I'm kinda iffy on this one. It'd be nice to see Sergio get through a game where he has no control on his offspeed stuff and has to just get outs with fastball control. That doesn't make him a mental midget. That probably has something to do with having about 10-15 less years of pitching experience than most of his peers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 08:05 AM) That's not lack of brains, that's just him being immature as a pitcher. This is a guy who didn't pitch even a full season in the minors, let alone college or beforehand. What you are describing is a perfect example of a learned pitching skill. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 08:07 AM) I dunno, one might consider those 2 things identical. You think maturity and intelligence are the same thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 09:11 AM) You think maturity and intelligence are the same thing? At least in a pitching/athletic performance sense...yeah, kinda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 08:13 AM) At least in a pitching/athletic performance sense...yeah, kinda. I think that's absurd. Saying intelligence and maturity are the same is like saying physical tools and statistical results are the same. They of course are not, though one tends to lead to the other. What I've seen so far, I think Sergio is actually a pretty bright kid, but he is still learning and maturing as a pitcher. Right now, often times, he is still just a thrower. That doesn't by any definition make him stupid, or a mental midget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 08:16 AM) I think that's absurd. Saying intelligence and maturity are the same is like saying physical tools and statistical results are the same. They of course are not, though one tends to lead to the other. What I've seen so far, I think Sergio is actually a pretty bright kid, but he is still learning and maturing as a pitcher. Right now, often times, he is still just a thrower. That doesn't by any definition make him stupid, or a mental midget. That's the thing. If Serg had the typical pitchers background, he would have picked this up years ago. Instead he is learning it on the fly, at the major league level, which if anything makes him more impressive mentally, and not less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 How do you come to the conclusion that "Getting guys out when you don't have your good stuff" is something that most pitchers pick up early in their careers? I feel like most of the really good pitchers come up and get people out totally on stuff their first year or two and then gradually learn how to work through days when they don't have their good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 11:57 AM) How do you come to the conclusion that "Getting guys out when you don't have your good stuff" is something that most pitchers pick up early in their careers? I feel like most of the really good pitchers come up and get people out totally on stuff their first year or two and then gradually learn how to work through days when they don't have their good stuff. You just contradicted yourself there. You said it is something they don't learn early, then demonstrated how they learn it early. I don't think you can underestimate the amount of education that goes on at every level of pitching. The fact that Santos seems to be awful at times despite his incredible numbers, seems to bear that out when compared to his peers. TO me it is like saying that an advanced 4th grade is a mental midget because he can't do econometrics. He still has plenty of education in front of him, even if he has special stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanne Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 7, 2011 -> 07:05 AM) That's not lack of brains, that's just him being immature as a pitcher. This is a guy who didn't pitch even a full season in the minors, let alone college or beforehand. What you are describing is a perfect example of a learned pitching skill. I'll take Sergio and his novice upside over a bevy of other closers. The skill set this kid brings is sick and like NSS72 says...he's just getting started. He's gone through stretches he was just plain sick...unhittable. Not sure where the mental midget comment even came in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Trade Quentin, Danks or Floyd, and AJ if possible (by eating some salary). Trade Ozzie to the Marlins for one of those frozen Mai Tai backpack contraptions. Tell everyone to hit better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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