Congratulations on #2000, Pierre

[greg775]

He's 11th in the AL in hits while being 8th in at bats, so no, it literally does nothing to help your argument.

 

 

Tangible fact: He's 11th in hits. Who cares how many at bats he has? He' s also still hitting about .280 isn't he? That's also "good" in most people's minds.

 

I'm not saying he's Ricky Henderson in his prime. I'm saying Juan is a "good" baseball player. You'd think I was calling him King of the Hill. To me, 11th in hits is pretty damn good and if you throw in the at bats, it still comes out to a "good" batting average.

 

If Adam was eighth in at bats he'd probably be hitting .035.

[LittleHurt05]

If Adam was eighth in at bats he'd probably be hitting .035.

 

Adam Dunn has 60 hits in 372 ABs, a .161 average. If he had 559 ABs like Juan, and still had only 60 hits, that would leave him with a .107 average. I think your math is off somewhere there greg.

[Rowand44]

Tangible fact: He's 11th in hits. Who cares how many at bats he has?

Tangible fact: He's 3rd in baseball in outs made. Who cares how many at bats he has?

 

That was fun.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Tangible fact: He's 3rd in baseball in outs made. Who cares how many at bats he has?

 

That was fun.

 

 

s***, who's made more? I was sure he was leading in that category.

[Rowand44]

 

s***, who's made more? I was sure he was leading in that category.

Ichiro and Melky Cabrera.

[Greg Hibbard]

He's 11th in the AL in hits while being 8th in at bats, so no, it literally does nothing to help your argument.

 

Yes, most dudes who have the most hits happen to have the most at bats.

 

As it turns out, at one time Major League Baseball devised a statistic to describe a player's effectiveness in getting hits compared to the number of at bats that player has.

That statistic is called "batting average."

 

As it turns out, Juan Pierre is just outside of the top twenty in the entire American League in that statistic as well (of the 77 qualified batters). In other words, he's basically in the top quarter of the league.

Of the 129 batters with a minimum of 300 plate appearances, Juan Pierre happens to be 29th in batting average, or near the top fifth of the league.

 

In other words, I think he's alright in that department.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[Greg Hibbard]

Tangible fact: He's 3rd in baseball in outs made. Who cares how many at bats he has?

 

That was fun.

 

Tangible fact: he's also first in sacrifices, which are productive outs he's called on (not decides) to make.

 

That was fun, too.

[Rowand44]

Tangible fact: he's also first in sacrifices, which are productive outs he's called on (not decides) to make.

 

That was fun, too.

Ay, FINE. If you take away ALL of Pierre's sacrifices and don't take away any one elses, he's still 11th in all of baseball in outs made. You happy now?

[Greg Hibbard]

Ay, FINE. If you take away ALL of Pierre's sacrifices and don't take away any one elses, he's still 11th in all of baseball in outs made. You happy now?

 

Again, outs made, like hits, are better reflected by this statistic called BATTING AVERAGE.

[BigSqwert]

Again, outs made, like hits, are better reflected by this statistic called BATTING AVERAGE.

 

We give up. Juan Pierre is the greatest player in White Sox history. Without him, we would have won 4 or 5 games this year.

[Rowand44]

Again, outs made, like hits, are better reflected by this statistic called BATTING AVERAGE.

Is this a relatively new statistic? I've never heard of it

 

No f***in s***. You're the one who threw out the 11th in hits stat, Greg is talking about "tangible" statistics, so I was just trying to be as simplistic as him.

 

But once again, thanks for letting me in on this new batting average thing, I'll look into it.

[Greg Hibbard]

Is this a relatively new statistic? I've never heard of it

 

No f***in s***. You're the one who threw out the 11th in hits stat, Greg is talking about "tangible" statistics, so I was just trying to be as simplistic as him.

 

But once again, thanks for letting me in on this new batting average thing, I'll look into it.

 

You're welcome. I tend to think there is some value in a player who has a high batting average.

[Greg Hibbard]

We give up. Juan Pierre is the greatest player in White Sox history. Without him, we would have won 4 or 5 games this year.

 

It's responses like this that make threads like this utterly ridiculous.

 

I never said anything like this. I believe Pierre is an above average hitter, whose speed makes him a decent asset if the middle of the lineup is working properly.

 

I don't believe he merits the continuous bashing he receives by the same five people who resort to childish tactics to make their points.

 

 

[kjshoe04]

Juan Pierre has been a very average player this year. I really have no idea what else there is to discuss.

[Greg Hibbard]

Here a couple of examples of intangible things that have no doubt hindered Juan Pierre to getting into SOME (NOT ALL) decent running situations:

 

1) Having Adam Dunn be able to make contact with the baseball, work counts with the frequency he usually can, and command the kind of respect from pitchers where they will throw him balls instead of center cut fastball strikes he cannot make contact with (and thus set up catchers to throw out any decent speedster)

2) See above for Alex Rios.

 

If you don't think those two things have had an impact on Pierre's running game indirectly, I think you are deluding yourself.

 

Alexei's relative inability to work counts as a #2 has to also have some impact on his running game.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[Greg Hibbard]

Juan Pierre has been a very average player this year. I really have no idea what else there is to discuss.

 

This is a very acceptable response, IMO.

[gatnom]

I understand that power isn't the most important part of a lead off hitter, but the fact that you want to completely write it off and say it is worthless is absolutely absurd. You see no value at all in having a lead off hitter put himself directly on second base instead of having to risk stealing it or to require 2 hits to score? You also act as if the only statistic by which you can measure Pierre is by batting average. That is incredibly flawed not only by considering what I said above about power, but also by the fact that his job is to get on base pure and simple, which includes walking.

 

No matter how you slice it, Juan was bad to mediocre this season. Cherry pick arbitrary dates to show that he hasn't sucked since a certain period of time all you want (and the fact that he hasn't gotten ribbed nearly as much since then reflects that), but you can't just throw out all he did poorly and say that it's an accurate representation of his season.

 

 

[fathom]

Here a couple of examples of intangible things that have no doubt hindered Juan Pierre to getting into SOME (NOT ALL) decent running situations:

 

1) Having Adam Dunn be able to make contact with the baseball, work counts with the frequency he usually can, and command the kind of respect from pitchers where they will throw him balls instead of center cut fastball strikes he cannot make contact with (and thus set up catchers to throw out any decent speedster)

2) See above for Alex Rios.

 

If you don't think those two things have had an impact on Pierre's running game indirectly, I think you are deluding yourself.

 

Alexei's relative inability to work counts as a #2 has to also have some impact on his running game.

 

84% of Rios' at bats this year were from the 5th spot and lower. Thus, his struggles this year have nothing to do with Pierre's inability to steal bases. You might be the first person I've seen suggest that Pierre wasn't ineffective on the bases this year.

 

[Greg Hibbard]

84% of Rios' at bats this year were from the 5th spot and lower. Thus, his struggles this year have nothing to do with Pierre's inability to steal bases. You might be the first person I've seen suggest that Pierre wasn't ineffective on the bases this year.

 

I do not mean to suggest he is not more ineffective than in previous seasons.

I think he has stolen bases at his career clip since May.

I think some of the situations have evaporated because of our anemic offense.

[StrangeSox]

You're welcome. I tend to think there is some value in a player who has a high batting average.

 

So do the advanced metrics. A higher batting average is inherently beneficial to OBP, OPS etc. It's just that they get a little deeper than what a BA can tell you.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Only 3 weeks left of well below league-average production absorbing nearly 700 PAs a year.

[Greg Hibbard]

So do the advanced metrics. A higher batting average is inherently beneficial to OBP, OPS etc. It's just that they get a little deeper than what a BA can tell you.

 

I'd agree, but I also believe OPS is a statistic that ultimately weights SLG too highly in comparison with OBP, and that using OPS is especially problematic with traditional leadoff hitters.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'd agree, but I also believe OPS is a statistic that ultimately weights SLG too highly in comparison with OBP, and that using OPS is especially problematic with traditional leadoff hitters.

 

Which is why wOBA is the best metric out there to gauge one's offensive value because it measures OBP/SLG equally. And, of course, JP comes up well short there, too.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Jordan4life

[greg775]

You're welcome. I tend to think there is some value in a player who has a high batting average.

 

 

It's responses like this that make threads like this utterly ridiculous.

 

I never said anything like this. I believe Pierre is an above average hitter, whose speed makes him a decent asset if the middle of the lineup is working properly.

 

I don't believe he merits the continuous bashing he receives by the same five people who resort to childish tactics to make their points.

 

1.) So do I. The announcers I listen to also tend to mention batting average, uh, every time a player steps in the box. No announcers I've heard mention the advanced sabes stuff. Maybe on base percentage once in a while or some put that graphic on the screen.

2.) I agree with that post. The basis of people getting mad at me is my simple statement, which I stand by, saying Juan Pierre is a good baseball player. I think he is.

I also find it so funny that many can't forgive him for getting off to a slow start when other players' slow starts are shrugged off. There are still people on this board who think Rios is a good baseball player.

Edited September 9, 2011 by greg775

[Kyyle23]

1.) So do I. The announcers I listen to also tend to mention batting average, uh, every time a player steps in the box. No announcers I've heard mention the advanced sabes stuff. Maybe on base percentage once in a while or some put that graphic on the screen.

2.) I agree with that post. The basis of people getting mad at me is my simple statement, which I stand by, saying Juan Pierre is a good baseball player. I think he is.

I also find it so funny that many can't forgive him for getting off to a slow start when other players' slow starts are shrugged off. There are still people on this board who think Rios is a good baseball player.

 

 

Name one, Mr Broadbrush