Greg Hibbard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Juan is also 11th overall in the AL in hits. Not that that means he's anything but total s***, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:28 AM) It's ironic because GHibbard basically showed stats the other day that said after our bad start, the Sox had no chance to make the playoffs. No player was more responsible for that awful start than Pierre. Juan's a good guy who's had a solid 2nd half of the year, but there should be a ton of pissed off Sox fans if he's brought back next year when the more talented De Aza/Lillibridge combo could take over for cheaper and be more productive. Juan Pierre was more responsible than Matt Thornton and the rest of the bullpen for the 11-22? They blew 3-4 games IN A ROW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:28 AM) It's ironic because GHibbard basically showed stats the other day that said after our bad start, the Sox had no chance to make the playoffs. Unless Detroit and the rest of the division won less than 85 games. You guys keep twisting this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 04:29 PM) Juan Pierre was more responsible than Matt Thornton and the rest of the bullpen for the 11-22? They blew 3-4 games IN A ROW. Did you watch the games? Pierre's defense led to approximately 3 of those losses. His offense was brutal as well during that stretch, IIRC. Juan Pierre torpedoed Matt Thornton's season more than Matt did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:25 AM) Because you don't care to verify if the empirical evidence actually backs up your assumptions. Don't worry, I'll do the due diligence later with his gamelog. All I know is his SB% is well below the 70% threshold that determines the guys who actually contribute with their legs in that department or just give away outs. That's plenty for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:30 AM) Juan Pierre torpedoed Matt Thornton's season more than Matt did. This might be the most amazing thing I've ever read on this site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 05:37 PM) This might be the most amazing thing I've ever read on this site. And I firmly believe Pierre killed any chance Thornton had of being a closer (as slim as it was). Greg, do you just not remember Pierre dropping fly balls hit by Johnny Damon and Daric Barton at the Cell with Thornton on the mound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) Let's be clear. After Juan Pierre dropped two fly balls, the White Sox were 7-4, and Matt Thornton was still the closer. People are saying that those two dropped fly balls that ultimately resulted in the White Sox being 7-4 were more responsible for the 11-22 start than the subsequent 4-18 stretch in which Juan Pierre did not drop any fly balls? And we're also saying that Matt Thornton's role as closer was threatened by this? I don't think Ozzie or anyone else would agree with that. Edited September 9, 2011 by Greg Hibbard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:37 AM) This might be the most amazing thing I've ever read on this site. Yeah, that's pretty extreme. Juan's defense didn't help, but he's not more responsible for Thornton's failure as a closer than Thornton was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 10:35 AM) It's kind of sad how certain people on this site rush to make fun of Juan Pierre defenders. This is a guy who is the anti-Rios (in terms of heart), but the naysayers just can't wait to jump all over anyone who is a fan of him. For two seasons, he's pretty much done exactly what we expected him to do coming in - hit about .280-.300 with no pop and some wheels. He had one s***ty month on defense and in terms of stolen bases, (it was mediocre offensively) and people just don't let up. It's pretty unreal. If you can't recognize that Pierre had a ton to do with the terrible start, then I don't know how to argue with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 12:32 PM) I don't know how to argue with you. Let's start with this: Juan had something to do with us starting 7-4 instead of 9-2, which I felt was no big deal. The rest of the team had a ton to do with the subsequent 4-18 stretch. People would like to believe the two games that made us 7-4 instead of 9-2 caused the downward spiral that led to our utter doom. I think it has a lot more to do with the 4-18 stretch that Juan Pierre's defense had little or nothing to do with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:29 AM) Juan Pierre was more responsible than Matt Thornton and the rest of the bullpen for the 11-22? They blew 3-4 games IN A ROW. So he wasn't more responsible than an entire facet of the team? And that's your argument? Looking at individual players, the only one that I could accept had as much to do with the terrible start was was Thornton. Edited September 9, 2011 by Milkman delivers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 And the guy is at about half of his normal steal attempts for the year. If that doesn't prove that he himself knows that he can't even steal anymore, then I don't know what does. Oh wait, yes I do: the fact that he's 25/39 on the season. Sure, break it down that he had a stretch where he wasn't bad at stealing, but the numbers speak for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 12:45 PM) he can't even steal anymore, It's statements like this that make detractors look ridiculous. Again, why are you so desperate to exaggerate? The dude CAN clearly steal bases. In fact, his SB/CS percentage since May 1st is exactly in line with his career rate. Unless you can prove that Ozzie automatically green-lighted him AND that he has had several count/situational missed opportunities, you cannot assume that the lack of offense/situations had SOMETHING to do with his lower totals. From a SB/CS perspective, Juan had an abysmal April. The rest is normal. Sorry you disagree; the numbers don't lie. Edited September 9, 2011 by Greg Hibbard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 12:51 PM) It's statements like this that make detractors look ridiculous. Again, why are you so desperate to exaggerate? The dude CAN clearly steal bases. In fact, his SB/CS percentage since May 1st is exactly in line with his career rate. Unless you can prove that Ozzie automatically green-lighted him AND that he has had several count/situational missed opportunities, you cannot assume that the lack of offense/situations had SOMETHING to do with his lower totals. From a SB/CS perspective, Juan had an abysmal April. The rest is normal. Sorry you disagree; the numbers don't lie. You are the ultimate cherry picker. And yes, I exaggerated for effect. He can't steal like he used to anymore. Come up with whatever garbage you have to refute that, nobody but the usual loonies are going to believe you. I have to go catch a flight. You all have a good weekend. Edited September 9, 2011 by Milkman delivers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 12:39 PM) Let's start with this: Juan had something to do with us starting 7-4 instead of 9-2, which I felt was no big deal. The rest of the team had a ton to do with the subsequent 4-18 stretch. People would like to believe the two games that made us 7-4 instead of 9-2 caused the downward spiral that led to our utter doom. I think it has a lot more to do with the 4-18 stretch that Juan Pierre's defense had little or nothing to do with. 9-2 and 7-4 are quite different for a team's momentum in April. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 11:28 AM) Juan is also 11th overall in the AL in hits. Not that that means he's anything but total s***, of course. *Facepalm. Can you tell me where he ranks in OBP and OPS? Or hell, where's at in terms of batting average? His hits are some of the most empty in all of baseball. He's also getting a ton of PAs since he's a leadoff hitter. But no, let's look at a stat that doesn't take a plethora of things into context. Pierre's a replacement level player who only started to hit when we were already in the s***. His fielding in April also cost the Sox games. There's no use to defend him, you're fighting a losing battle. Edited September 9, 2011 by chw42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 12:07 PM) You are the ultimate cherry picker. Yeup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySox Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Arbitrary endpoints are awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 01:07 PM) Come up with whatever garbage you have to refute that, nobody but the usual loonies are going to believe you. I have to go catch a flight. You all have a good weekend. I'm sure we all appreciate that you are an important man, to catch a flight after you resort to name-calling and degradation in order to make your points, rather than taking the time to actually look up data and back the s*** you claim up. If the usual loonies are the ones who actually do research to back up their opinions rather than just insult people, then yes, I think I'd rather listen to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 01:10 PM) *Facepalm. Can you tell me where he ranks in OBP and OPS? Or hell, where's at in terms of batting average? His hits are some of the most empty in all of baseball. He's also getting a ton of PAs since he's a leadoff hitter. But no, let's look at a stat that doesn't take a plethora of things into context. Pierre's a replacement level player who only started to hit when we were already in the s***. His fielding in April also cost the Sox games. There's no use to defend him, you're fighting a losing battle. Can you tell me where in OPS a player's ability to go from first to third on a single to right field is denoted? Or a player's ability to go home on a double from first? It's an extra base that a high-OPS, slower player doesn't get, yet it's not picked up in that stat. Could you honestly argue that Pierre's intangible speed which earns him an extra base in every running situation against a much slower player is picked up by a stat like OPS? This is exactly why using OPS to measure Juan Pierre's total skill is a totally misguided venture. You don't look at Paul Konerko's stolen bases, and yet you want to measure Juan Pierre's power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Did you guys know that Juan Pierre is still the 4th worst outfielder in baseball this season according to WAR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 07:07 PM) You are the ultimate cherry picker. And yes, I exaggerated for effect. He can't steal like he used to anymore. Come up with whatever garbage you have to refute that, nobody but the usual loonies are going to believe you. I have to go catch a flight. You all have a good weekend. Juan is 11th overall in hits? Nice. I will say this about Milkman ... he is very tough to beat on a message board and his posts often make it seem like he wants desperately to "win" arguments. He calls me a troll and flicks me away like a fly on his collar as if I cared. Since I disagree with him, I'm a minor pest to be flicked away with one sentence here or there. To his credit, he knows the ways to pick out one sentence here or there to attack and in his mind, "win" the argument. He says "I exaggerated for effect." That's the type of line I'm talking about that works so well for Milk on the anonymous Internet. Oh, sure, you get called on something and u just simply say you exaggerated for effect. Masterful! Milk appears to me to be the kind of guy (poster) who just doesn't want to deal with anybody who disagrees with him. I'm the type of person (poster) who reads others arguments then restates my own. Milk ... it's OK if people disagree in life. Didn't mama ever tell you life would be boring if everybody agreed on everthing?? And I mispelled everything on purpose for you. As far as Juan, nice to know he's 11th in the league in hits. I state again that helps my argument that he's a good baseball player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 07:15 PM) I'm sure we all appreciate that you are an important man, to catch a flight after you resort to name-calling and degradation in order to make your points, rather than taking the time to actually look up data and back the s*** you claim up. If the usual loonies are the ones who actually do research to back up their opinions rather than just insult people, then yes, I think I'd rather listen to them. Since Milk likes to congratulate those who nail me to the wall in posts, I'd like to cite Hibbard. Great stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 9, 2011 -> 01:36 PM) As far as Juan, nice to know he's 11th in the league in hits. I state again that helps my argument that he's a good baseball player. He's 11th in the AL in hits while being 8th in at bats, so no, it literally does nothing to help your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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