Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 12:43 PM) Define "use him correctly"? People here have Dunn and Rios on the bench. There are only 25 roster spots. He's a #9 hitter/4th OF. A player of his caliber shouldn't be in the top 10 in PAs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:45 PM) He's a #9 hitter/4th OF. A player of his caliber shouldn't be in the top 10 in PAs. He's not effective enough on defense to be a 4th OF. A 4th OF better be able to cover CF non-terribly, at least in the AL where you only have 4 bench roster spots. And he's no longer a stolen base threat if you use him as a pinch runner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 12:38 PM) If you watch Pierre, you know his skill-set makes him rely on others far too much to end up scoring a run. The White Sox need to be a team based around hitting home runs, plain and simple. Sure, but the entire team needs to be overhauled. The idea that that this pitching staff was good enough to win is absurd too. I was as critical of Pierre as anyone and don't want him back next year, but he was one guy who played exactly as expected. He's not in the top 10 reasons they're 9.5 out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 12:46 PM) He's not effective enough on defense to be a 4th OF. A 4th OF better be able to cover CF non-terribly, at least in the AL where you only have 4 bench roster spots. And he's no longer a stolen base threat if you use him as a pinch runner. But that's what he is, or should be, on this particular team. The best-case scenario, obviously, is that he wouldn't be on the roster at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 12:45 PM) He's a #9 hitter/4th OF. A player of his caliber shouldn't be in the top 10 in PAs. You'd bench your 2nd highest obp guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 06:54 PM) Sure, but the entire team needs to be overhauled. The idea that that this pitching staff was good enough to win is absurd too. I was as critical of Pierre as anyone and don't want him back next year, but he was one guy who played exactly as expected. He's not in the top 10 reasons they're 9.5 out. Again, I have a hard time excusing him for being one of the main, if not the biggest, culprits for our terrible start. He's done enough the rest of the year to avoid 50 threads a day on here begging for him to get benched though! Like you said, I hope he's not back next year but I do wish him the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 12:57 PM) You'd bench your 2nd highest obp guy? Again, tallest midget syndrome. He should've been benched for Dayan months ago. Or at least seen a reduction in playing time. But there were no circumstances aside from injury that would've seen that come to fruition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:09 PM) Again, tallest midget syndrome. He should've been benched for Dayan months ago. Or at least seen a reduction in playing time. But there were no circumstances aside from injury that would've seen that come to fruition. Dunn, Rios, and Pierre benched. That leaves one spot open with De Aza and Viciedo playing regularly. By the way, the team has lost ground in the standings since De Aza and Viciedo have been playing regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 06:25 PM) Dunn, Rios, and Pierre benched. That leaves one spot open with De Aza and Viciedo playing regularly. By the way, the team has lost ground in the standings since De Aza and Viciedo have been playing regularly. And the Tigers going on a massive streak has everything to do with that. The Sox are winning at a higher percentage with Viciedo and De Aza in the lineup than they were prior to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:25 PM) Dunn, Rios, and Pierre benched. That leaves one spot open with De Aza and Viciedo playing regularly. By the way, the team has lost ground in the standings since De Aza and Viciedo have been playing regularly. There's a spot open because CQ is hurt. All things being equal, when it actually mattered, Dayan should've been up in June. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:28 PM) And the Tigers going on a massive streak has everything to do with that. The Sox are winning at a higher percentage with Viciedo and De Aza in the lineup than they were prior to it. Point is they were never going to win with the production they got from the albatross contracts regardless of what they did to work around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:32 PM) Point is they were never going to win with the production they got from the albatross contracts regardless of what they did to work around it. That's purely assumption. You, I, or anybody has no idea what would've occurred had they acted sooner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 06:33 PM) SABRmetrics has jumped the shark. If you watch and understand the game you know Pierre did his job. You also know that the Tigers are simply better than the Sox. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 12:33 PM) SABRmetrics has jumped the shark. Hilarious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Just so you know guys, sabermetrics loved Juan Pierre at one point in his career. But oh no, it's definitely jumping the shark! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 09:08 AM) What is it that you think I don't understand? I simply stated a fact. Your comment on Quentin, on the other hand, is complete conjecture as you have no way of knowing how he would have performed if he had not been injured. The entire idea of qualifying is flawed when you're comparing OBP. Because "qualifying" means 3.1 ABs per game. On Base Percentage does not only depend on At Bats, it also depends on walks, hit by pitches, sacrifice hits, and sacrifice flies. Quentin has 3.3 PAs per game the White Sox have played, so technically, if the idea of qualification is 3.1 PAs per game, then he would easily qualify. And technically it should be that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 12:33 PM) SABRmetrics has jumped the shark. If you watch and understand the game you know Pierre did his job. You also know that the Tigers are simply better than the Sox. This is a game which has historically captured raw data and has presented certain statistics to determine value throughout a players career. I believe in fact that they have peddled cards with a picture on the front and a select set of stats on the back. So what I don't understand the resistance to taking the same raw data and or statistics to derive other output from it. Nothing wrong with adding dimension to data that is already being collected. Baseball seems to jumped on board, so what's the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 04:16 PM) This is a game which has historically captured raw data and has presented certain statistics to determine value throughout a players career. I believe in fact that they have peddled cards with a picture on the front and a select set of stats on the back. So what I don't understand the resistance to taking the same raw data and or statistics to derive other output from it. Nothing wrong with adding dimension to data that is already being collected. Baseball seems to jumped on board, so what's the issue. No! It's much easier to see a .280-ish average and run with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 03:46 PM) Just so you know guys, sabermetrics loved Juan Pierre at one point in his career. But oh no, it's definitely jumping the shark! Explain Moneyball the movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Moneyball has zero or nothing to do with OBP. Those teams won because of Hudson/Mulder/Zito and then enough offense with guys like Giambi, Chavez and Tejada sprinkled in there. They filled out their last 25% of the roster with those Dan Johnson/Hatteberg/Swisher types (high OBP at 1B/LF/RF/DH)....but the whole idea of it as being an area where they exploited this concept to build some kind of replicable dynasty is a complete joke. Moneyball should have been about the Twins....but Ryan over there was never interesting or compelling or egomaniacal enough to write about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 01:38 PM) That's purely assumption. You, I, or anybody has no idea what would've occurred had they acted sooner. You seem partial to SABRmetrics, do De Aza and Viciedo make up 9.5 games from June on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 07:33 PM) You seem partial to SABRmetrics, do De Aza and Viciedo make up 9.5 games from June on? There was one Saturday when DET lost and we'd yet to play and could have pulled within 2 games. They only needed to play well enough to make up 3-4 games at that time. 9 wasn't the issue until recently...when DET decided to play like the most dangerous team in the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 07:30 PM) Moneyball has zero or nothing to do with OBP. Those teams won because of Hudson/Mulder/Zito and then enough offense with guys like Giambi, Chavez and Tejada sprinkled in there. They filled out their last 25% of the roster with those Dan Johnson/Hatteberg/Swisher types (high OBP at 1B/LF/RF/DH)....but the whole idea of it as being an area where they exploited this concept to build some kind of replicable dynasty is a complete joke. Moneyball should have been about the Twins....but Ryan over there was never interesting or compelling or egomaniacal enough to write about. Moneyball is all about SABRmetrics. the SABRmetric way of puting teams together was wildly successful during the steroid era, wonder if there is any correlation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 07:36 PM) There was one Saturday when DET lost and we'd yet to play and could have pulled within 2 games. They only needed to play well enough to make up 3-4 games at that time. 9 wasn't the issue until recently...when DET decided to play like the most dangerous team in the playoffs. So thats a no, they were not enough to make up 9.5 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 10, 2011 -> 07:38 PM) Moneyball is all about SABRmetrics. the SABRmetric way of puting teams together was wildly successful during the steroid era, wonder if there is any correlation? No, Moneyball was about Michael Lewis giving Billy Beane and the Oakland front office a complete hand job. Sabermetrics existed long before Billy Beane and heavy steroid use. Research about Markov models of baseball lineups existed in the late 80s and there were numerous books written on similar research. People just think Moneyball made sabermetrics because it was the first time they heard about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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