Ozzie is leaving on a jetplane

[Milkman delivers]

Why?

 

LOL, it's a joke because I always complain that people continue to respond to the person I ignore, which forces me to see it.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Milkman delivers

[greg775]

Greg, with that response, you should be a speechwriter for Romney.

 

If you were JR, at the end of this season, whether we're in 2nd or 3rd place, do you fire Ozzie Guillen? Or do you look to trade his rights to the Marlins for talent...and, failing that, bring him back to finish his contract without providing an extension beyond the 2012 season (making him a lame duck)?

 

 

I don't think he was "trained" by the Sox. Ozzie came in managing a certain way, and he'll go out managing that same way. In reality, who would he have learned from? He doesn't listen to the GM (who isn't exactly the guy who want training a manager). Other than that, he's the boss of the team. Ozzie is very stubborn, and his stubbornness leads to bad decisions sometimes. He'll do the same thing in Florida (if he goes there), and we'll have to wait and see what sort of results he'll have.

 

You have your opinion that any new guy won't be any better than Ozzie. I (and many others) disagree. But, again we'll have to wait and see. I personally think that Ozzie's emotions and hard-headedness gets in the way of making good baseball decisions. Someone more level headed who concentrates on the game vs. what to say to the media will do a better job...in my opinion.

 

2.) Fair enough. Good post.

 

1.) I think it's a tough call for Jerry on Ozzie. I think unless there's something known behind the scenes (like Ozzie doesn't work hard; comes to work late; is rude to people; stuff like that) I would keep Ozzie and reassign Kenny.

It's obvious the two can't work together and because of their dual stubborness, either both have to go or one has to go. They did it to themselves and they are grown men, not dummies, and even they certainly realize both have committed fireable offenses with their inability to put the team first.

 

Now if Ozzie does work hard, does care, is a good employee in those regards (which we are not privy to that information), then I would keep him as manager because of my stated reasons. He is young and frankly probably going to be a better candidate than anybody the Sox bring in.

 

There is a danger in bringing Ozzie back, however. And this is what JR must think about. He could come back and we could have the exact same scenario next season. Get off to a rotten start, play horribly at home, be an instant buzzkill team again. That will mean NO FANS.

If Ozzie is gone in favor of another manager and hitting coach, in theory there will be hope that Dunn, Rios and Beckham can rebound. The stories in the winter and ST will be about how these hitters like the new hitting coach, etc., and expect a full turnaround. The Sox will be in the news a lot and a FRESH START might translate to optimism and ticket sales.

 

Tough call.

I'd prefer keeping Ozzie cause he's still young and learning.

But I can see why they'd want a fresh start.

 

Greg's call, which you asked for: Keep Ozzie.

[Jordan4life_2007]

LOL, it's a joke because I always complain that people continue to respond to the person I ignore, which forces me to see it.

 

lmao. Really? What kinda ignore feature is that, then? What's the point? I've never ignored anybody. So I didn't know.

[Dick Allen]

1.) You guys really think things won't change in baseball and Philly and Atlanta are just gonna dominate year after year? If so then I'm mistaken. Florida isn't exactly Chicago Cub-like.

2.) You will be surprised at my reaction. I told everybody earlier I didn't care if he got fired. I think Ozzie even expected to get the boot in mid May. He is not dumb; by baseball standards he deserved to get booted at that time. A high payroll, supposed contender, was what, nine or 10 under .500? Or seven under or something?

I just happen to believe he's going to be better than whomever we hire to replace him. And I think he's SO young it's a shame he learned on the job here while winning one WS (which the Sox NEVER do) and he's only going to get better. It's a shame the Sox "trained" him for his next gig.

I love Ozzie but I'm not going to freak at all when the boot comes.

Greg, one question, if bringing in Ozzie will make everything wrong with the Marlins right, how come the White Sox aren't great?

[greg775]

lmao. Really? What kinda ignore feature is that, then? What's the point? I've never ignored anybody. So I didn't know.

 

Milkman hates my posts so he ignores me. There's an ignore button.

 

The Internet world is bizarre. I assume Milk is a very successful person; Whether he believes it or not, I do well enough as well. In real life I have friends and family and all that. It begs the question: If I met Milkman would he punch me? Would he tackle me? Would he run the other way? All because of Internet banter? It would take an awful lot for me to get worked up over anything any of you post on here.

Edited September 13, 2011 by greg775

[caulfield12]

2.) Fair enough. Good post.

 

1.) I think it's a tough call for Jerry on Ozzie. I think unless there's something known behind the scenes (like Ozzie doesn't work hard; comes to work late; is rude to people; stuff like that) I would keep Ozzie and reassign Kenny.

It's obvious the two can't work together and because of their dual stubborness, either both have to go or one has to go. They did it to themselves and they are grown men, not dummies, and even they certainly realize both have committed fireable offenses with their inability to put the team first.

 

Now if Ozzie does work hard, does care, is a good employee in those regards (which we are not privy to that information), then I would keep him as manager because of my stated reasons. He is young and frankly probably going to be a better candidate than anybody the Sox bring in.

 

There is a danger in bringing Ozzie back, however. And this is what JR must think about. He could come back and we could have the exact same scenario next season. Get off to a rotten start, play horribly at home, be an instant buzzkill team again. That will mean NO FANS.

If Ozzie is gone in favor of another manager and hitting coach, in theory there will be hope that Dunn, Rios and Beckham can rebound. The stories in the winter and ST will be about how these hitters like the new hitting coach, etc., and expect a full turnaround. The Sox will be in the news a lot and a FRESH START might translate to optimism and ticket sales.

 

Tough call.

I'd prefer keeping Ozzie cause he's still young and learning.

But I can see why they'd want a fresh start.

 

Greg's call, which you asked for: Keep Ozzie.

 

 

You really don't think Ozzie is rude to people, especially/including White Sox fans and season ticket holders?

 

I know your defense of him...he's refreshing, "telling it like it is," not cliched or boring, he's taking the pressure off the players by drawing so much attention to himself, etc.

 

But don't you think Ozzie himself believes he is BIGGER than the White Sox, that he's the public face of the team, that he represents (to the outside world) their image of Chicago baseball?

 

Is that really a good thing?

 

Does Ozzie's presence (at this point in his regime) help draw fans to the ballpark? Or does it actually keep a significant number of frustrated fans away?

 

And what about all of the unprofessional allegations/distractions caused by Oney's official and now underground tweeting and social networking?

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Milkman hates my posts so he ignores me. There's an ignore button.

 

The Internet world is bizarre. I assume Milk is a very successful person; Whether he believes it or not, I do well enough as well. In real life I have friends and family and all that. It begs the question: If I met Milkman would he punch me? Would he tackle me? Would he run the other way? All because of Internet banter? It would take an awful lot for me to get tri;u worked up over anything any of you post on here.

 

lol. I don't think it's that serious. You're fine, greg. A little strange. But strange is good.

[greg775]

Greg, one question, if bringing in Ozzie will make everything wrong with the Marlins right, how come the White Sox aren't great?

 

Well, I personally think we've had a ton of players have bad years.

I think our pitching again has been overrated. The starters were excellent for a long time, however.

I think the team has had very very bad hitting (not Ozzie's fault really), the team is very very slow on the basepaths (not Ozzie's fault), the team cannot bunt (Ozzie deserves 80 percent of the blame there), some very poor relief performances when it mattered (not Ozzie's fault).

[BigSqwert]

Well, I personally think we've had a ton of players have bad years.

I think our pitching again has been overrated. The starters were excellent for a long time, however.

I think the team has had very very bad hitting (not Ozzie's fault really), the team is very very slow on the basepaths (not Ozzie's fault), the team cannot bunt (Ozzie deserves 80 percent of the blame there), some very poor relief performances when it mattered (not Ozzie's fault).

That's a very very good analysis.

[Quin]

Stop quoting him damnit!

 

 

LOL, it's a joke because I always complain that people continue to respond to the person I ignore, which forces me to see it.

 

Exactly, was hoping you'd get the humor.

 

lmao. Really? What kinda ignore feature is that, then? What's the point? I've never ignored anybody. So I didn't know.

 

I didn't until the other day.

 

Milkman hates my posts so he ignores me. There's an ignore button.

 

The Internet world is bizarre. I assume Milk is a very successful person; Whether he believes it or not, I do well enough as well. In real life I have friends and family and all that. It begs the question: If I met Milkman would he punch me? Would he tackle me? Would he run the other way? All because of Internet banter? It would take an awful lot for me to get worked up over anything any of you post on here.

 

He'd tackle you while yelling "THE MILKMAN DELIVERS".

 

But nah greg, like I've said, I like you. I just couldn't take VC's posts.

 

lol. I don't think it's that serious. You're fine, greg. A little strange. But strange is good.

 

+1

[greg775]

I'll answer your points briefly as possible:

 

 

You really don't think Ozzie is rude to people, especially/including White Sox fans and season ticket holders?

-- From what people have written on here, he's nice in public and I think he signs autographs willingly, etc. I don't think signs are that he is a rude man.

 

I know your defense of him...he's refreshing, "telling it like it is," not cliched or boring, he's taking the pressure off the players by drawing so much attention to himself, etc.

-- Yes that is my defense. I truly don't mind his controversial quotes. Sometimes I think they are spot on.

 

But don't you think Ozzie himself believes he is BIGGER than the White Sox, that he's the public face of the team, that he represents (to the outside world) their image of Chicago baseball?

Is that really a good thing?

-- I don't think he thinks he's bigger than the White Sox (but that's why I said only people on the inside know if he's a prick) but I do agree he thinks he's the public face of the team. Yes he does.

 

Does Ozzie's presence (at this point in his regime) help draw fans to the ballpark? Or does it actually keep a significant number of frustrated fans away?

-- No he doesn't draw fans to the park. I seriously doubt he personally keeps many away. Now the team's awful performance has kept many away and he is partly responsible for the performance so yes, he's helped keep thousands away with his team's pathetic play.

 

And what about all of the unprofessional allegations/distractions caused by Oney's official and now underground tweeting and social networking?

-- The tweet stuff has never bothered me. It's his kid, not him. The Teahen thing was kind of funny, not life and death.

 

I would truly change my opinion of him if I was told that he is an ASS to fans, reporters, players, stadium workers, batboys, etc. I believe Bevington was described as a total horse's ass.

I'm not denying most teams would have fired their manager for what's transpired this year. Very high payroll, very high expectations; totally disgusting team.

If he gets fired, I won't say it's unwarranted. I will say I think his best years of managing are ahead of him and why should that be in Florida?

Edited September 13, 2011 by greg775

[Dick Allen]

Well, I personally think we've had a ton of players have bad years.

I think our pitching again has been overrated. The starters were excellent for a long time, however.

I think the team has had very very bad hitting (not Ozzie's fault really), the team is very very slow on the basepaths (not Ozzie's fault), the team cannot bunt (Ozzie deserves 80 percent of the blame there), some very poor relief performances when it mattered (not Ozzie's fault).

But why will all those types of problems not occur in Miami if Ozzie is the manager? They happen here, I think they can happen anywhere.

[greg775]

But why will all those types of problems not occur in Miami if Ozzie is the manager? They happen here, I think they can happen anywhere.

 

I guess the same problems could surface immediately in Florida with him in charge.

 

I haven't studied Florida's roster, but I find it hard to believe any team has worse team speed than the White Sox.

 

That is a good point, though. If Florida starts playing dysfunctional baseball like we play next season, I guess it could be more than coincidence and the argument that Ozzie sucks would have more clout to it.

[southsider2k5]

I wonder what the odds look like after a game like tonight?

[Rowand44]

Pages 3 and 4 of this thread were certainly interesting.

[greg775]

Pages 3 and 4 of this thread were certainly interesting.

 

Why?

[caulfield12]

I guess the same problems could surface immediately in Florida with him in charge.

 

I haven't studied Florida's roster, but I find it hard to believe any team has worse team speed than the White Sox.

 

That is a good point, though. If Florida starts playing dysfunctional baseball like we play next season, I guess it could be more than coincidence and the argument that Ozzie sucks would have more clout to it.

 

 

Weren't we 2nd in the AL in stolen bases in 2010?

 

That didn't change much coming into this year, Lillibridge has been added (occasionally) to the lineup, and he has plus speed.

 

Then you have DeAza as well.

 

It's because of the huge dropoffs from Pierre (nowhere close to leading the league in SB's), Rios (not on base enough) and Alexei Ramirez (mystifyingly hitting into so many DP's...although it's not surprising with his array of pull-hook grounders to the left side) that are stolen bases numbers are way down.

 

Viciedo and Flowers actually run better than average for their size.

 

It's always going to be Konerko/Dunn/AJ that slow the team down, but before that, you had to add the likes of Thome/Thomas/Dye/Ordonez/C-Lee. Quentin, Beckham and Morel are average or slightly below for their positions in terms of speed...particularly Carlos after all of his foot problems.

 

Bottom line, in a hitter's park, you need more power than speed-based players....although it's nice to sprinkle 2-3 in among the line-up to "create" runs when the big boppers are slumping or facing dominant starting pitching.

Edited September 13, 2011 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

I understand the Florida deal, but I am betting Ozzie stays and gets a contract extension. We here probably know as much about Ozzie's situation than Ken Rosenthal and it's all speculation right now IMO

 

 

Things you take Pepto Bismol for:

Nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea

 

Things Ozzie Guillen causes:

Nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea, alcoholism

 

-Thus, you understand why we drink

[Cali]

My nightmare scenario for the off-season is KW stays, Ozzie gets a 3-year extension including everyone in his staff except for Cooper who bolts for the Yanks or Sawx, Addison Reed is dumped for an older bullpen player, Viciedo is including in a "Kenny Blockbuster" trade for a veteran/injured player looking for comeback/guy who's had a few mediocre seasons and need a change of scenery when we could have offered way less, Kenny misses out on a player that another team gets for way less...

 

All the while we watch the Tigers and Indians get better in the winter.

[Texsox]

I still think most people are pushing Oz further to extremes than he really is. It's the nature or debates here. Some think he is way better than he really is, and to counter that, some are making him out to be way worse than he is. Ozzie isn't worth ten loses or wins, and that would just be to get in the playoff race. This team will lose 80 games, the vast majority will be on the players, not Oz. Remove Oz and there are still some serious holes to be filled.

 

With the position the Sox are in, bringing in guys making the league min and hoping they work out isn't going to satisfy fans. So KW and Co. go after veterans who are having good careers and contracts to "prove it". When they bomb, it's a big money bombing. Besides the Dunn family, no one wishes he was making that kind of money, but remove his contract, fans would be pushing for the team to sign someone who will be earning a similar contract.

[Texsox]

Greg, one question, if bringing in Ozzie will make everything wrong with the Marlins right, how come the White Sox aren't great?

 

I'll toss in an answer, chemistry. People listen to the new person. Just look at guys and how quickly they listen to the new girlfriend. That all changes soon. There are very few managers who can stay fresh. I believe Oz's style has just run its course.

[southsider2k5]

More fire for the Ozzie Victory parade...

 

CSNChi_Beatnik Brett Ballantini

Ozzie post: "You lose a game like this and get beat up again vs DET, I’m not going to say yeah, we got fire, because I don’t see it"

 

[SI1020]

It seems cut and dried.

If they won't extend him, it's off to Florida where I say he gets four years. Many of you tell me I'm wrong and he'll 'only' get three.

Good luck to anyone who works for the Marlins owner. Edited September 13, 2011 by SI1020

[mcgrad70]

I just have a feeling everyone will be back except I think Walker will walk, or it will be a lot bigger than anyone is thinking, like JR selling or stepping back from his role and KW and OG both being bounced. I don't think it will just be Ozzie or KW leaving.

 

Reinsdorf is at the crossroads in this town.

It's going to cost more than he wants to spend to compete in baseball.

He doesn't want to decide between Kenny and Ozzie.

Kenny's not getting another GM job so he'll likely do the Paxson thing.

The key to all of this is whether Hahn goes along with this charade like Foreman did - which I doubt.

So then Rick will be freed up to go to the Cubs or wherever.

If Hahn leaves then they'll have to hire another puppet because Kenny and Ozzie working together is out of the question.

I also believe that Reinsdorf has no intention of paying Derrick Rose the big bucks over the course of his career.

He cried over paying Jordan those 3 years.

Paying Rose would cost him all of that easy money he's made on the Bulls since his cabal weaseled their way into the NBA.

He'll try to sell before he's forced to pay or do the unthinkable and trade Rose.

[caulfield12]

Reinsdorf is at the crossroads in this town.

It's going to cost more than he wants to spend to compete in baseball.

He doesn't want to decide between Kenny and Ozzie.

Kenny's not getting another GM job so he'll likely do the Paxson thing.

The key to all of this is whether Hahn goes along with this charade like Foreman did - which I doubt.

So then Rick will be freed up to go to the Cubs or wherever.

If Hahn leaves then they'll have to hire another puppet because Kenny and Ozzie working together is out of the question.

I also believe that Reinsdorf has no intention of paying Derrick Rose the big bucks over the course of his career.

He cried over paying Jordan those 3 years.

Paying Rose would cost him all of that easy money he's made on the Bulls since his cabal weaseled their way into the NBA.

He'll try to sell before he's forced to pay or do the unthinkable and trade Rose.

 

 

You're making a big assumption that Hahn will even be in the Top 3 for the Cubs' job. It's the most coveted job in baseball for many...hiring an unproven GM probably won't be the direction the Ricketts family goes in, unless Hahn just simply wows them in the interview stage.