Cooper and/or Ozzie status could affect MB coming back next year

[Dick Allen]

I dont get that feeling. Mark would pitch for us regardless of who the manager was.

I agree. It makes no sense not pitching for the team that you've been with your whole career because Ozzie or Cooper aren't around, to go pitch for another team where Ozzie or Cooper aren't around. If the money is right and the Sox aren't rebuilding, either or both of those guys being gone isn't going to be a factor in MB's decision.

[greg775]

Haha indeed he did.

 

I vote Greg and Marty for 2012 GM/Manager combo. They'd cut Dunn, Rios, Peavy and eat the 80 million owed. Resign MB for 4 years 90 million, Juan for 2 years 20 million, and give Ozzie an open ended 10 mil a year deal. Then trade everyone else on the team for pitching prospects.

 

 

Wow excuse me black jack, Alex Fernandez, Floyd bannister, Joel horlen, Gary peters, Ed Walsh.....

 

1.) I already said I didn't want Juan back, even though I respect what he made out of his season. I also said I'd cut Dunn and keep Rios and make him fourth outfielder just because of the contract. In a perfect world, yes I'd cut both. I'd resign Mark. Sign Ozzie to a 4 year extension; move Kenny to another job.

[JoshPR]

1.) I already said I didn't want Juan back, even though I respect what he made out of his season. I also said I'd cut Dunn and keep Rios and make him fourth outfielder just because of the contract. In a perfect world, yes I'd cut both. I'd resign Mark. Sign Ozzie to a 4 year extension; move Kenny to another job.

Why is my post quoted here? And puhlesse Ozzie needs to go.

[knightni]

1.) I already said I didn't want Juan back, even though I respect what he made out of his season. I also said I'd cut Dunn and keep Rios and make him fourth outfielder just because of the contract. In a perfect world, yes I'd cut both. I'd resign Mark. Sign Ozzie to a 4 year extension; move Kenny to another job.

 

You have to decide as a fan... Do you want to live in "2005 World" or do you want the team to work towards another championship in the future?

 

Remember the past fondly, but always look forward.

[caulfield12]

Wow excuse me black jack, Alex Fernandez, Floyd bannister, Joel horlen, Gary peters, Ed Walsh.....

 

Goose Gossage (not here so long), Billy Pierce, Ted Lyons (interesting fact, 2nd highest ERA of any HOF pitcher), Ed Cicotte, Hoyt Wilhelm, Early Wynn, etc.

 

 

[caulfield12]

1.) I already said I didn't want Juan back, even though I respect what he made out of his season. I also said I'd cut Dunn and keep Rios and make him fourth outfielder just because of the contract. In a perfect world, yes I'd cut both. I'd resign Mark. Sign Ozzie to a 4 year extension; move Kenny to another job.

 

You're really going to eat $44 million?

 

After just one season?

 

You have to try trading him for a change of scenery type guy...like Jason Bay or Chone Figgins or anyone.

 

As has been mentioned over and over in this thread, very few teams in baseball have that kind of money sitting around to make a lump-sum payment in 2012.

 

The White Sox arguably are going to lose $5-15 million already, as it stands.

 

And then keeping Rios on the bench...where he's obviously going to be a negative (some would say cancerous) presence around a group of younger incoming ballplayers, that's a recipe for bad chemistry right off the bat.

 

And if Rios sits, there's no way you can trade him for the next 3 years...and his defense has been pretty awful, as well. He's not even an obvious defensive replacement in CF this year. And no way he can get out of offensive slump playing just a couple of times a week.

 

 

[Marty34]

As has been mentioned over and over in this thread, very few teams in baseball have that kind of money sitting around to make a lump-sum payment in 2012.

 

It's not a lump sum payment. Anyway, it's not going to happen.

 

Benching Dunn is worse than releasing him. He should play every game from here on out.

[Dick Allen]

If the Sox released Dunn, they wouldn't owe him the balance of his contract on the spot. They would pay it when the guaranteed contract states it will be paid or he'd agree to a buyout.

[caulfield12]

Yeah, I guess that makes sense, since the argument about the White Sox possibly being responsible for Manny Ramirez's deal with the Dodgers when the McCourts and MLB were feuding....

 

Heck, the Trump organization is still paying Herschel Walker on his New Jersey Generals contract.

[kitekrazy]

The Sox should not be a change of scenery for any player unless they personally want to pursue career lows.

Edited September 15, 2011 by kitekrazy

[kitekrazy]

Who the hell overrates Mark Buehrle?

 

Probably most of baseball. They look at innings. They probably will over look that he wears down the 2nd half and he doesn't have the benefit of the 6 man rotation.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

It's not a lump sum payment. Anyway, it's not going to happen.

 

Benching Dunn is worse than releasing him. He should play every game from here on out.

Or not.

 

Dunn's lack of confidence should be evident in the batting cage. If he's starting and stopping his swing on an 85mph straight fastball in BP then it's pretty clear he doesn't belong in the game. Dunn needs to prove in ST he's a major league player or else he needs to be in Charlotte/released/whatever.

 

The reality is this: Dunn makes $14M next year, but the rest of the team combined will likely make at least $86M next year. League minimum should still be less than $500K. If Dunn in 2012 is as abysmal as he's been this year - and again this should be readily apparent in BP, you shouldn't need to see him against live MLB pitching to know where he is at mentally - then the decision on Dunn is not a very difficult one to make. The choice is to either let a $14M bad investment weigh down another, say, $86M investment, or spend the extra $500K and look to recoup some of that loss through a better ballclub. Dunn's money is gone for good, and unlike Rios who can actually put the bat on the ball and play the field, Dunn without confidence is just playing 24-vs.-26 baseball. His situation is unprecedented so we can't really compare this to a Linebrink or something.

[greg775]

Wow excuse me black jack, Alex Fernandez, Floyd bannister, Joel horlen, Gary peters, Ed Walsh.....

 

 

You have to decide as a fan... Do you want to live in "2005 World" or do you want the team to work towards another championship in the future?

 

Remember the past fondly, but always look forward.

 

 

Goose Gossage (not here so long), Billy Pierce, Ted Lyons (interesting fact, 2nd highest ERA of any HOF pitcher), Ed Cicotte, Hoyt Wilhelm, Early Wynn, etc.

 

1.) Black Jack over Mark? No, not long enough career. 2.) Fernandez and Bannister? Please. 3.) Horlen and Peters? No. 4.)Ed Walsh and oldies? Maybe, I said modern history. I'm talking about careers in a Sox uniform BTW. Floyd Bannister vs. Mark is ridiculous insult to Mark.

2.) I am not living in 05 world. I said basically get rid of one of the two. I chose KW to move upstairs and keep Oz.

3.) Goose; no, not with Sox long enough; Pierce, Lyons, Cicotte, Hoyt, Wynn ... I said modern history.

Face it, Mark is the best or one of the very best 1-2-3 Sox starters of all time modern era.

[caulfield12]

1.) Black Jack over Mark? No, not long enough career. 2.) Fernandez and Bannister? Please. 3.) Horlen and Peters? No. 4.)Ed Walsh and oldies? Maybe, I said modern history. I'm talking about careers in a Sox uniform BTW. Floyd Bannister vs. Mark is ridiculous insult to Mark.

2.) I am not living in 05 world. I said basically get rid of one of the two. I chose KW to move upstairs and keep Oz.

3.) Goose; no, not with Sox long enough; Pierce, Lyons, Cicotte, Hoyt, Wynn ... I said modern history.

Face it, Mark is the best or one of the very best 1-2-3 Sox starters of all time modern era.

 

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/836841-...history/page/16

 

Here's one that agrees with Greg.

 

The other "modern-day" Sox pitchers ranked were Contreras, Garland, Garcia, LaMarr Hoyt, Jenks, McDowell, Wilson Alvarez and Bobby Thigpen.

 

Alex Fernandez probably just missed...his Sox career was just a little too short, although I think he was more "impactful" than the likes of Garland, for example.

 

 

[Quin]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/836841-...history/page/16

 

Here's one that agrees with Greg.

 

The other "modern-day" Sox pitchers ranked were Contreras, Garland, Garcia, LaMarr Hoyt, Jenks, McDowell, Wilson Alvarez and Bobby Thigpen.

 

Alex Fernandez probably just missed...his Sox career was just a little too short, although I think he was more "impactful" than the likes of Garland, for example.

 

For what it's worth my all time Sox rotation is

 

Ed Walsh, Red Faber, Ted Lyons, Billy Pierce, Mark Buehrle

[greg775]

For what it's worth my all time Sox rotation is

 

Ed Walsh, Red Faber, Ted Lyons, Billy Pierce, Mark Buehrle

 

Nice. Mark is your first of the "modern day."

[Quin]

Nice. Mark is your first of the "modern day."

He made it it do to longevity. If it were individual seasons...Fernandez, Black Jack, Wynn, Loaiza, etc. all beat Mark.

[caulfield12]

He made it it do to longevity. If it were individual seasons...Fernandez, Black Jack, Wynn, Loaiza, etc. all beat Mark.

 

And Jose Contreras 05-06 and LaMarr Hoyt...arguably Thigpen for his saves record as well.

[greg775]

He made it it do to longevity. If it were individual seasons...Fernandez, Black Jack, Wynn, Loaiza, etc. all beat Mark.

 

I know but this isn't about individual seasons.

I said Mark was the best pitcher in Sox history and I was flamed for it.

He's da best.

[caulfield12]

I know but this isn't about individual seasons.

I said Mark was the best pitcher in Sox history and I was flamed for it.

He's da best.

 

MODERN history, though...which for most, is since roughly 1983 or so.

[hogan873]

For about a half a second I'd hesitate on getting rid of Ozzie if it meant Buehrle doesn't return. Then I'd remember why I want Ozzie gone, and I'd say, "Sorry Mark."

 

To me, Buehrle is a good pitcher and a great team member. There's no doubt he's had a very nice career, and he shows flashes of brilliance on the mound. Two of those flashes lasted nine innings each. Overall, he's a very effective pitcher, but he's not an ace. However, for what else he brings I think he gets paid more than he would if just for his pitching.

 

If Ozzie is gone, and Mark decides he doesn't want to play for an Ozzie-less team, that's too bad. Too bad for us, and too bad for Mark.

Edited September 15, 2011 by pittshoganerkoff

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yeah, don't need to get into why I love Mark and what he's meant to this franchise. Goes without saying. But if there's even the slightest of hesitation of resigning if Oz/Coop aren't here, then it's best he go else where. No one man is bigger than what's best for the franchise. Especially when that man is closer to a #4 starter than he is an ace and talks about retirement like he's 42 instead of 32.

[Texsox]

Where does it say anything about Oz? He paused when asked about Coop. Maybe he paused because he already knows something that isn't public. Hell, maybe he paused because he was thinking I'll only be back if Oz is fired.

 

And he's been a damn solid pitcher all these years. It's nice knowing you can pencil him in for 200+ innings, a bunch of quality starts, and rarely blown out. Take five starters like MB and you have a playoff team year after year.

[Balta1701]

Take five starters like MB and you have a playoff team year after year.

And you'll rack up world series saves like Mariano.

[Quin]

Take six starters like MB and you have a playoff team year after year.

 

Fixed.