caulfield12 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 18, 2011 -> 08:54 PM) You must have Ramirez confused with a Hall of Famer. You can't argue both sides. He's either nowhere close to a Hall of Famer and can be easily replaced by Brent Lillibridge, Saladino or Escobar, or he's the most valuable trading chip we have in our stable, by far. Which is it? You'd rather pay Mark Buehrle $12-14 million per year to be the equivalent of a #3 or #4 starter, yet you don't see any value in keeping Ramirez around? Why would we bother to keep Konerko and Buehrle if we were basically dismantling the entire team? Isn't now the best time to unload Konerko's contract before he goes south, too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeNukeEm Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I cant believe how comfortable people are with just dumping Mark Buehrle. Its so ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Sep 18, 2011 -> 11:09 PM) I cant believe how comfortable people are with just dumping Mark Buehrle. Its so ridiculous. Have to make the right decision for the organization whether it's at the expense of Mark or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Sep 18, 2011 -> 11:09 PM) I cant believe how comfortable people are with just dumping Mark Buehrle. Its so ridiculous. There's a difference between "dumping" Mark Buehrle and dumping Magglio Ordonez. He can't go to the Cardinals, their rotation is set for 2012. So unless we 1) don't want him back or 2) lowball him to the point where he's insulted, the likelihood of him returning to the White Sox would have to be considered at least 75%. I would love to have him back. My argument (in this particular thread) is you don't want Mark Buehrle (or Konerko for that matter) for 2012 if you're trading away Quentin, Floyd, Danks, Santos and Ramirez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 18, 2011 -> 09:37 PM) If you are selling Alexei, you aren't looking at 2013, you are looking at 2016. You really need to quit the rebuilding hyperbole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 01:02 AM) You really need to quit the rebuilding hyperbole. You can't exactly call it reloading, but we're much closer to that than any type of rebuilding why KW is still in charge. Maybe a new GM (Hahn) would be given the Marty34 directive, but, until that happens...it's a moot argument. One thing's for sure, it would take Ozzie Guillen another 3-4 years to be fired leading that youth movement into the ground...if his ego would even allow him to take a step back from the pretense of competitiveness in the AL Central and go with the Jerry Manuel late 90's program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 01:39 AM) You can't exactly call it reloading, but we're much closer to that than any type of rebuilding why KW is still in charge. Maybe a new GM (Hahn) would be given the Marty34 directive, but, until that happens...it's a moot argument. One thing's for sure, it would take Ozzie Guillen another 3-4 years to be fired leading that youth movement into the ground...if his ego would even allow him to take a step back from the pretense of competitiveness in the AL Central and go with the Jerry Manuel late 90's program. All I'm really saying is that you don't need to be the Royals or Pirates or whatever team to rebuild your franchise. The main thing I'm advocating is that we should trade away our 2008 "core" since it's getting to the point where they need to be paid what they are worth, and we don't have a lot of money to throw around while we wait for our bad contracts to expire. Oh, and by the way, we could spend as much as the Pirates on the draft and still have a $90 million big league budget, assuming our "maximum" payroll is $100 million. Nothing is going to force JR and the owners to start pocketing an extra $30 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 04:29 AM) All I'm really saying is that you don't need to be the Royals or Pirates or whatever team to rebuild your franchise. The main thing I'm advocating is that we should trade away our 2008 "core" since it's getting to the point where they need to be paid what they are worth, and we don't have a lot of money to throw around while we wait for our bad contracts to expire. Oh, and by the way, we could spend as much as the Pirates on the draft and still have a $90 million big league budget, assuming our "maximum" payroll is $100 million. Nothing is going to force JR and the owners to start pocketing an extra $30 million. So why keep Konerko and Buehrle as well if we wouldn't be able to compete until 2014 probably? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 01:02 AM) You really need to quit the rebuilding hyperbole. History proves me out. Who is the last team to do a complete strip down and recover in a couple of year span? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 18, 2011 -> 09:54 PM) You must have Ramirez confused with a Hall of Famer. I think you have him confused with Eduardo Escobar. Ramirez is a top 3 AL shortstop. Those are really, really hard to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 History proves me out. Who is the last team to do a complete strip down and recover in a couple of year span? This didn't take a "couple" of years to break, this is at least 5 if not more years in the making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 08:23 AM) This didn't take a "couple" of years to break, this is at least 5 if not more years in the making. How you get there has no effect on how long it takes to recover. That is immaterial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 09:04 AM) History proves me out. Who is the last team to do a complete strip down and recover in a couple of year span? I think it's the Giants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 How you get there has no effect on how long it takes to recover. That is immaterial. Actually it 1000% does, if the GM makes smart trades, and draft picks.. over the 5+ year time frame.. We are not talking about this. But, since the guys has not in over 11 years... We blame the Manager.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 08:29 AM) Actually it 1000% does, if the GM makes smart trades, and draft picks.. over the 5+ year time frame.. We are not talking about this. But, since the guys has not in over 11 years... We blame the Manager.. Hires a smart manager... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I think it's the Giants. But, there is allot of bad money on that team as well. They also have a great pitchers park, which history has proven is easier to build a winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 09:30 AM) But, there is allot of bad money on that team as well. They also have a great pitchers park, which history has proven is easier to build a winner. Huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Hires a smart manager... That was the smartest thing this GM did.. was hire the current manager... Sooooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Huh? Can you give me an actually question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 08:30 AM) That was the smartest thing this GM did.. was hire the current manager... Sooooo The manager who keeps overseeing the collapse of just about every established player that Kenny trades for? I'm going with keeping Ozzie around being not a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 09:31 AM) Can you give me an actually question? Can you establish beyond any sort of doubt that a pitchers park helps a team build a winner? Thinking back over the last decade, you've got teams like the Yankees, Phillies, and Red Sox with hitters parks, the Rangers have become a winner with a hitters park, the White Sox won in a hitters park, the Rockies had a WS appearance, the Diamondbacks have a WS win, the Astros had a WS appearance, the Twins had a ton of playoff appearances while in a hitters park, switched to a pitchers' park, and still made the playoffs. You said it's 100% certain that a pitchers park helps build a winner, but if that were true, then we'd have a lot more pitchers parks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 The manager who keeps overseeing the collapse of just about every established player that Kenny trades for? I'm going with keeping Ozzie around being not a good thing. Wow.. What manager in 2011, comes on this Team and makes it a Division Winner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 19, 2011 -> 08:39 AM) Wow.. What manager in 2011, comes on this Team and makes it a Division Winner? A manager that doesn't lose Adam Dunn and Alex Rios? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Can you establish beyond any sort of doubt that a pitchers park helps a team build a winner? Thinking back over the last decade, you've got teams like the Yankees, Phillies, and Red Sox with hitters parks, the Rangers have become a winner with a hitters park, the White Sox won in a hitters park, the Rockies had a WS appearance, the Diamondbacks have a WS win, the Astros had a WS appearance, the Twins had a ton of playoff appearances while in a hitters park, switched to a pitchers' park, and still made the playoffs. You said it's 100% certain that a pitchers park helps build a winner, but if that were true, then we'd have a lot more pitchers parks. I am stating what some GMs have stated over the years.. repeating it. And there are always exceptions to the rule, doesn't mean the rule doesn't apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictoryMC98 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 A manager that doesn't lose Adam Dunn and Alex Rios? So what exactly did Ozzie do to make that happen? Not play them enough, play them too much, not read them a bed time story? Dunn and Rios aren't bad signings, waiver pickups.. Cause Kenny never does that... Its because of Ozzie, that's your stance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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