Sox best hitter endorses Walker

[Dick Allen]

Konerko had the one bad year when Walker took over. As I said in teh other thread, PK had already had a .300 season, a 30 homer season, and a 100 RBi season at that point.

 

Rowand's best season was in Philly, right before FA. Uribe had the great year his first year here, and then desended by over .200 OPS before rebounding in SF.

You wanted his Loaisa. Didn't Loaisa fall apart or am I mistaken?

[southsider2k5]

But that's only maybe 3 names.

 

If someone wants to claim Morel or Lillibridge as great successes...you're welcome to assert that.

 

We haven't even mentioned the likes of Matt Thornton, Jose Contreras, Jon Garland, Jenks, etc.

 

Quentin was one of the DBacks' top prospects at one point.

 

He wasn't to the level of a D'Angelo Jimenez or Julio Ramirez who was simply another busted prospect. And the thing is Walker couldn't take credit for building on that success or Quentin improving he staying at a level comparable to 2008. He regressed.

 

yeah, by no means was the pitching list complete. the reality is that it isn't even close. Cooper has had some amazing success stories, Walker hasn't.

[VictoryMC98]

Weren't Humber, Floyd, Thornton, Jenks and Garland top prospects at one point? The Yankees gave Contreras $32 million, he had to be pretty good, considering Alexei got $4 million and now everyone is saying he is hitting exactly what was projected. Floyd has regressed since 2008, Jenks regressed, Garland regressed, Loaisa regressed, Contreras regressed, what's the point? Thornton is Cooper's masterpiece, without a doubt. The one guy he fixed who actually stayed fixed.

 

Take out April '11.. Sure.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'll say one thing for DA. At least he's not trying to give Walker credit for Morel's hot month. At least I don't think he has. If so then he loses all credibility.

[southsider2k5]

Weren't Humber, Floyd, Thornton, Jenks and Garland top prospects at one point? The Yankees gave Contreras $32 million, he had to be pretty good, considering Alexei got $4 million and now everyone is saying he is hitting exactly what was projected. Floyd has regressed since 2008, Jenks regressed, Garland regressed, Loaisa regressed, Contreras regressed, what's the point? Thornton is Cooper's masterpiece, without a doubt. The one guy he fixed who actually stayed fixed.

 

And the most that could be named for Walker are about four guys, despite his getting more guys to work with than Cooper ever year. Guys that were quit on by major league baseball. Top pick or not, these are guys no one did anything with. Again, who is the minor league signing that Walker has turned into an everyday player? Who is the waiver pick up that walker turned into an every day player? Who is the 25 man roster casualty that Walker fixed? Cooper has a track record, which is why teams want him. Walker has pretty much done nothing compared to cooper. Hell if you want to discount for being top picks, PK was a first round pick, CQ was a first round pick, Rowand was a second round pick, and Uribe was a big time bonus baby out of Latin America.

[Dick Allen]

And the most that could be named for Walker are about four guys, despite his getting more guys to work with than Cooper ever year. Guys that were quit on by major league baseball. Top pick or not, these are guys no one did anything with. Again, who is the minor league signing that Walker has turned into an everyday player? Who is the waiver pick up that walker turned into an every day player? Who is the 25 man roster casualty that Walker fixed? Cooper has a track record, which is why teams want him. Walker has pretty much done nothing compared to cooper. Hell if you want to discount for being top picks, PK was a first round pick, CQ was a first round pick, Rowand was a second round pick, and Uribe was a big time bonus baby out of Latin America.

Who is the top 3 pick position player that KW signed to a minor league contract? De Aza was a waiver claim, he's hitting .320

 

Again, you wanted examples, I gave you similar examples. Caufield said Quentin was great but regressed, I pointed out most of Cooper's projects also regressed. Facts are facts. Walker is a lot better than the average Sox fan thinks. You remember every hitting failure, but forget every pitching failure.

 

I really don't want Cooper fired. I think he's fine. I just would like this board to treat him the same way Greg Walker gets treated. Maybe you will see how silly you are after a while.

[Milkman delivers]

Who is the top 3 pick position player that KW signed to a minor league contract? De Aza was a waiver claim, he's hitting .320

 

Again, you wanted examples, I gave you similar examples. Caufield said Quentin was great but regressed, I pointed out most of Cooper's projects also regressed. Facts are facts. Walker is a lot better than the average Sox fan thinks. You remember every hitting failure, but forget every pitching failure.

 

I really don't want Cooper fired. I think he's fine. I just would like this board to treat him the same way Greg Walker gets treated. Maybe you will see how silly you are after a while.

 

To be fair, De Aza came up and hit immediately. Unless Greg Walker fixed him in the hours before his first game, you can't use him.

 

And honestly, Dick, do you know Greg Walker personally? That is a serious question.

[southsider2k5]

Who is the top 3 pick position player that KW signed to a minor league contract? De Aza was a waiver claim, he's hitting .320

 

Again, you wanted examples, I gave you similar examples. Caufield said Quentin was great but regressed, I pointed out most of Cooper's projects also regressed. Facts are facts. Walker is a lot better than the average Sox fan thinks. You remember every hitting failure, but forget every pitching failure.

 

I really don't want Cooper fired. I think he's fine. I just would like this board to treat him the same way Greg Walker gets treated. Maybe you will see how silly you are after a while.

 

So you have nothing. Kiss your analogy good-bye.

[caulfield12]

But shouldn't Tim Laker be more credited with DeAza's success than Walker?

 

He worked with him in Charlotte (correct me if I'm wrong) for parts of two seasons...there's no way you could argue Alejandro has had more exposure to Walker than Laker.

 

Contreras got hurt and got old. Not sure how to blame Cooper for that one. His career in NY was to the point where they had to subsidize a large part of his Sox salary.

 

I would think if Cooper had someone like Dice-K Matsuzaka to work with next season and he won the Cy Young (just throwing out a hypothetical) that Cooper would deserve a ton of credit, yes?

 

I also don't think it's especially fair to criticize Don Cooper for Jake Peavy this season...the guy's coming off a once-in-a-lifetime injury that's never been surgically-repaired (for a pitcher) in history. So who's to say that Jake and Cooper aren't absolutely maxxing out the best he can give? It's easy to say look at his 2007 stats in PETCO in a weaker hitting division (outside of the Dodgers) when he had a 95 MPH fastball and devastating slider. He doesn't have anything out there...for about 50-60% of his starts this season, just pitching on competitiveness and guile.

 

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

The reason you can try to hang peavy on Cooper is that Peavys mechanical issues contributed to and caused that injury. That said, the sox always lead the league in starters innings, so keeping his guys healthy is usually one thing coop is great at.

[Texsox]

The reason you can try to hang peavy on Cooper is that Peavys mechanical issues contributed to and caused that injury. That said, the sox always lead the league in starters innings, so keeping his guys healthy is usually one thing coop is great at.

Or Kenny does a nice job of selecting players Maybe Ozzie knows how to use them

[Dick Allen]

So you have nothing. Kiss your analogy good-bye.

I just showed you a lot. Again, name one top 3 draft pick position player KW picked up on waivers? You are making Humber out to be God. He's been good, but he's 9-9 with an ERA near 4.00 which would probably be higher if he wasn't hit on the head and sat down a couple of weeks. De Aza was a waiver claim, as I mentioned and he's hitting .326. The person who has nothing is you. Kiss your analogy good bye.

[Dick Allen]

But shouldn't Tim Laker be more credited with DeAza's success than Walker?

 

He worked with him in Charlotte (correct me if I'm wrong) for parts of two seasons...there's no way you could argue Alejandro has had more exposure to Walker than Laker.

 

Contreras got hurt and got old. Not sure how to blame Cooper for that one. His career in NY was to the point where they had to subsidize a large part of his Sox salary.

 

I would think if Cooper had someone like Dice-K Matsuzaka to work with next season and he won the Cy Young (just throwing out a hypothetical) that Cooper would deserve a ton of credit, yes?

 

I also don't think it's especially fair to criticize Don Cooper for Jake Peavy this season...the guy's coming off a once-in-a-lifetime injury that's never been surgically-repaired (for a pitcher) in history. So who's to say that Jake and Cooper aren't absolutely maxxing out the best he can give? It's easy to say look at his 2007 stats in PETCO in a weaker hitting division (outside of the Dodgers) when he had a 95 MPH fastball and devastating slider. He doesn't have anything out there...for about 50-60% of his starts this season, just pitching on competitiveness and guile.

 

This is the problem, There's always a reason not to blame Cooper when a player's performance isn't up to par, but Soxtalk and every other message board and talk radio callers all blame Walker when the offense isn't there. Rudy Jaramillo was the greatest hitting coach of all time. The Cubs are 14th in the NL with RISP. Does Rudy have a bad plan, or does Rudy have bad hitters?

 

As for Contreras, no one was a bigger fan than me on this site, but to give Cooper all the credit for his success is pretty shortsided, and if you do, you must give him blame when the performance slips. Personally, I think El Duque was the reason he became unhittable as El Duque begged him to pitch like he pitched in Cuba, he had changed his style. He switched and became an ace. Face it, at the trade deadline in 2005 he wasn't so great, the consensus on this board was to trade him for AJ Burnett. Thank God that didn't happen. One interesting thing about Contreras is when he became a free agent after the Sox traded him to Colorado, he stated wherever he went he wanted to take the Colorado pitching coach with him.

[Soxbadger]

Milkman,

 

Kitekrazy hit the nail on the head, people have been saying its common sense that Greg Walker will be gone for longer than I can remember. So to act as if its a "done deal" is just ignoring all historical evidence. I personally believe that Walker will not be back, but I wouldnt be so bold to guarantee it.

 

DA,

 

Another argument is how many Sox hitters went on to other teams to drastically improve under another hitting coach?

 

I just dont think the Sox have had a lot of offensive players who have been complete hitters.

[Milkman delivers]

Milkman,

 

Kitekrazy hit the nail on the head, people have been saying its common sense that Greg Walker will be gone for longer than I can remember. So to act as if its a "done deal" is just ignoring all historical evidence. I personally believe that Walker will not be back, but I wouldnt be so bold to guarantee it.

 

DA,

 

Another argument is how many Sox hitters went on to other teams to drastically improve under another hitting coach?

 

I just dont think the Sox have had a lot of offensive players who have been complete hitters.

 

You don't seem to be so bold as to go out on a limb for anything. It's an internet message board, not court. Loosen up.

[max power]

I was making out with an analogy once, until my mom walked in - couldnt even get a kiss goodbye.

[Soxbadger]

Right its a message board, so might as well just be reasonable. Its one thing to discuss why walker should or should not be the coach, its another to just say he wont be.

 

Its supposed to be fun.

[kitekrazy]

Who is the top 3 pick position player that KW signed to a minor league contract? De Aza was a waiver claim, he's hitting .320

 

Again, you wanted examples, I gave you similar examples. Caufield said Quentin was great but regressed, I pointed out most of Cooper's projects also regressed. Facts are facts. Walker is a lot better than the average Sox fan thinks. You remember every hitting failure, but forget every pitching failure.

 

I really don't want Cooper fired. I think he's fine. I just would like this board to treat him the same way Greg Walker gets treated. Maybe you will see how silly you are after a while.

 

In reality, using Cooper to justify keeping Walker just doesn't work in MLB. Hitting coaches are a dime a dozen. Before Walker didn't both teams in town go through a whole slew of hitting coaches?

 

Walker is easier to replace than Cooper.

 

[caulfield12]

If you want to argue about Cooper, it has been the "regression" with Floyd and Danks compared to where they were in 2008.

 

Chris Sale might have had the greatest improvement from first to second half of the season...and how many draft picks from 2010 are producing at his level (as pitchers) already in the majors?

 

Santos, overall, still has to be a huge feather in his cap if you look at where he came from just 2-3 years ago.

 

 

Then you get the other argument....that Sweeney, Getz, Anderson, Fields, Borchard, C. Carter, Brandon Allen, etc., never established themselves as legit starters after leaving the organization.

 

Of course, that could just as easily be blamed on bad scouting/talent identification as anything to do with Walker in particular.

 

Unfortunately, we'll never know what might have happened had Chris Young played at the major league level for us.

 

And, to go along with what southside was saying...there haven't been any pitching prospects who were as highly-touted as Beckham as a middle infielder who experienced success and then completely fell off the face of the map under Walker. Rios and Dunn became two of the 10 worst hitters in the major leagues, and Beckham and Morel weren't far behind for most of the season.

 

Dick Allen will argue that a higher percentage of payroll was invested in the starting rotation than the position players, but that's going to be the case with 75-80% of major league rosters, particularly the most competitive teams year-in and year out, like the Phillies, Giants, Rangers or Red Sox.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Milkman,

 

Kitekrazy hit the nail on the head, people have been saying its common sense that Greg Walker will be gone for longer than I can remember. So to act as if its a "done deal" is just ignoring all historical evidence. I personally believe that Walker will not be back, but I wouldnt be so bold to guarantee it.

 

DA,

 

Another argument is how many Sox hitters went on to other teams to drastically improve under another hitting coach?

 

I just dont think the Sox have had a lot of offensive players who have been complete hitters.

And how many went to other teams and really improved? One I can think of, that was Swisher, who didn't work with Walker, but I suppose we can blame Walker in a Ms. Cleo sort of way. Rowand had a big second year in Philadelphia, but guess who he worked with the winter before that year, and that year was very similar to his 2004?

 

I also agree that Walker being gone is a foregone conclusion, but if anyone thinks that will cure their offensive woes, they are going to be dissappointed.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Milkman delivers]

And how many went to other teams and really improved? One I can think of, that was Swisher, who didn't work with Walker, but I suppose we can blame Walker in a Ms. Cleo sort of way. Rowand had a big second year in Philadelphia, but guess who he worked with the winter before that year, and that year was very similar to his 2004?

 

I also agree that Walker being gone is a foregone conclusion, but if anyone thinks that will cure their offensive woes, they are going to be dissappointed.

 

So bold!

[Milkman delivers]

Oh, and I don't think very many people believe that just dropping Walker will cure the team's offensive woes. That's a straw man. The vast majority seems to think that it simply wouldn't hurt.

[BigSqwert]

Baines getting in would be the equivalent of letting every team have an all star representative. He's pretty good as far as Sox players go but certainly not deserving to be in the HOF.

[BigSqwert]

Whoops. Wrong thread.

[Balta1701]

Greg Walker agrees.