Sox best hitter endorses Walker

[southsider2k5]

I just showed you a lot. Again, name one top 3 draft pick position player KW picked up on waivers? You are making Humber out to be God. He's been good, but he's 9-9 with an ERA near 4.00 which would probably be higher if he wasn't hit on the head and sat down a couple of weeks. De Aza was a waiver claim, as I mentioned and he's hitting .326. The person who has nothing is you. Kiss your analogy good bye.

 

By your own standards you disqualified everyone you submitted, so you are back to nothing. Top picks and prospects don't count right? So the four guys who you mention are all out. Walker has nothing. That leaves Cooper way ahead.

[Dick Allen]

By your own standards you disqualified everyone you submitted, so you are back to nothing. Top picks and prospects don't count right? So the four guys who you mention are all out. Walker has nothing. That leaves Cooper way ahead.

They count, but you're argument is Gordon Beckham. When you pop off about Gavin Floyd, look what Cooper "did" with Floyd when he was 24, and then try again.

 

I'm just mirroring your argument, you asked me for names, I gave you names. I asked you for top 3 in the draft position players KW has picked up, and you have no response. You go on and on about Humber and ask about a waiver wire claimed hitter that has done anything. I give you De Aza.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

They count, but you're argument is Gordon Beckham. When you pop off about Gavin Floyd, look what Cooper "did" with Floyd when he was 24, and then try again.

 

I'm just mirroring your argument, you asked me for names, I gave you names. I asked you for top 3 in the draft position players KW has picked up, and you have no response. You go on and on about Humber and ask about a waiver wire claimed hitter that has done anything. I give you De Aza.

 

There have been way more than Floyd and Humber. Humber may have been a #3 pick, but how many pitching coaches failed to get him to do anything at all? He is 28 now, not 18 or 22. That is the whole point. Other than Humber, Cooper never has had a #3 pick. Humber only bolsters the argument for the job that Cooper has done because of his previous history of being mediocre to awful.

[Marty34]

Coop screwed up David AArdsma and Nick Masset. What I really want to know though was if he had any involvement in the Hudson trade.

[Dick Allen]

There have been way more than Floyd and Humber. Humber may have been a #3 pick, but how many pitching coaches failed to get him to do anything at all? He is 28 now, not 18 or 22. That is the whole point. Other than Humber, Cooper never has had a #3 pick. Humber only bolsters the argument for the job that Cooper has done because of his previous history of being mediocre to awful.

I'm glad you think Humber is headed to the HOF, but he was a top prospect who had elbow surgery. He was the prize for Johan Santana. We'll see how he does next season, he was a lot better than most believed he would be this year. Floyd was a #4 pick I believe.

[Milkman delivers]

Again, using De Aza to defend Walker is a joke. And no one's laughing. Or everyone is. It's a terrible argument, is my point.

[caulfield12]

I'm glad you think Humber is headed to the HOF, but he was a top prospect who had elbow surgery. He was the prize for Johan Santana. We'll see how he does next season, he was a lot better than most believed he would be this year. Floyd was a #4 pick I believe.

 

 

But he also lost 3-4 MPH on his fastball and was ditched by the Twins and Royals after getting just a couple of starts....2 at the most....in both places, or maybe it was 0. Whatever it was, it wasn't much. And then the A's left him unprotected.

 

Humber's situation is a lot more impressive than any hitters who can be claimed on behalf of Walker.

[Dick Allen]

Again, using De Aza to defend Walker is a joke. And no one's laughing. Or everyone is. It's a terrible argument, is my point.

He's kept it going which he didn't in FL which got him waived. If he was hitting .220 it would be on Walker. Personally, I don't know how much of De Aza's success is because of Walker, just like I don't think Humber would have a 7.00 ERA if he were a White Sox and Nardi Contreras was the pitching coach. He is a little further removed from surgery and added a pitch before he came to the Sox, and its not like he's a Cy Young candidate. Weren't we also told the Sox, and I'm assuming Cooper but could be wrong, recognized a simple fix with Zach Stewart as one of the reasons they got him? But as long as the reason any White Sox pitcher has success that he didn't have with another team is soley because of the pitching coach, its only fair Greg Walker gets a feather in his cap if the same thing occurs with a hitter. The problem is most White Sox fans brains are programmed into believing pitchers without Don Cooper would never have an ERA under 5.50 or a WHIP under 2.00 and hitters away from Greg Walker hit at least .300 with an .850 OPS.

 

I just have a hard time believing its Greg Walker's fault when Gordon Beckham swings at a pitch over his head. Everyone who thinks it is probably has blamed someone else for all their shortcomings.

 

The Sox pitching staff is now tied for 9th in team ERA in the AL.

 

And if you think what I post is a joke, is it really anymore of a joke than the people who post the reason why the Sox were slow to call up Viciedo is they are afraid Walker will get to him or say Walker will ruin everyone? Its his final week, and he's done a lot better job than most realize.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

We're all one of the worst offenses in the majors with one of the most expensive rosters, to boot.

 

Dunn and Rios with historically bad seasons, especially considering their salaries.

 

Beckham not far behind. Morel for four months was basically useless offensively. Pierre the first 2 months as well.

 

 

Some would consider all the money saved by simply erasing Teahen from the roster a victory. Oh, yeah, yet another offensive bust.

 

Nobody in the offseason is going to be citing the pitching as the main reason yet another Sox team crumbled.

 

But with Buehrle leaving (possibly), maybe now's the best time to just totally change out the entire coaching staff and front office.

 

 

And yes, most here would it consider it a lot more likely that, for example, Jake Peavy will finally have a good/healthy season in 2012 (if Cooper stays) than for anyone to believe Dunn/Rios/Beckham will improve dramatically if Walker does.

 

It's not really fair to compare the pitching staff without Jackson versus the current version with Stewart unless you want to blame KW.

 

And why are hitters always assumed to get at least one full offseason to make any progress with swing changes whereas Cooper is supposed to "fix" Stewart from the first start he makes?

 

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I'm glad you think Humber is headed to the HOF, but he was a top prospect who had elbow surgery. He was the prize for Johan Santana. We'll see how he does next season, he was a lot better than most believed he would be this year. Floyd was a #4 pick I believe.

 

If he was really that good, why did no one else get it out of him until now?

[Dick Allen]

If he was really that good, why did no one else get it out of him until now?

What really are you getting out of him? He's 4th or 5th starter material, like Bruce Chen. Occassionally they will throw decently for a season. You are absolutely postive the only reason Humber is having any success is Don Cooper. What has Cooper done to make him better? Name me the most prominent baseball person who has said anything negative about the job Walker does? Walker yelled at Kenny so you don't like him. It wasn't long ago you used to have smart ass comments for anyone that said anything negative about Ozzie, but Kenny doesn't like Ozzie anymore, so neither do you. Walker is far better than most give him credit. That is the bottom line. You can say he sucks all you want, but Konerko, Thome, AJP, Dye, CLee, Magglio, Crede, Iguchi, Everett, Ramirez, Rowand show otherwise, and we are still waiting for a bust with the Sox to become a star some place else, because face it, there has to be a Don Cooper of hitting out there somewhere, and if you read this board regularly you will know once Walker leaves, so does any problem with the offense.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2011 by Dick Allen

[kitekrazy]

What really are you getting out of him? He's 4th or 5th starter material, like Bruce Chen. Occassionally they will throw decently for a season. You are absolutely postive the only reason Humber is having any success is Don Cooper. What has Cooper done to make him better? Name me the most prominent baseball person who has said anything negative about the job Walker does? Walker yelled at Kenny so you don't like him. It wasn't long ago you used to have smart ass comments for anyone that said anything negative about Ozzie, but Kenny doesn't like Ozzie anymore, so neither do you. Walker is far better than most give him credit. That is the bottom line. You can say he sucks all you want, but Konerko, Thome, AJP, Dye, CLee, Magglio, Crede, Iguchi, Everett, Ramirez, Rowand show otherwise, and we are still waiting for a bust with the Sox to become a star some place else, because face it, there has to be a Don Cooper of hitting out there somewhere, and if you read this board regularly you will know once Walker leaves, so does any problem with the offense.

 

It's usually indirect. The last one was KW and that's the one that matters most.

 

[VictoryMC98]

It's usually indirect. The last one was KW and that's the one that matters most.

 

KW, was never a baseball player..

Edited September 24, 2011 by VictoryMC98

[Dick Allen]

It's usually indirect. The last one was KW and that's the one that matters most.

And what did KW say? He didn't say anything about Walker just about Beckham. KW and Walker argued because Walker is old school and didn't think KW mentioning things like that about Beckham in the press was the cool thing to do. KW acted like the child he is and told Walker to go home, just like he told Ozzie to go home last year. He's 0-2.

[southsider2k5]

What really are you getting out of him? He's 4th or 5th starter material, like Bruce Chen. Occassionally they will throw decently for a season. You are absolutely postive the only reason Humber is having any success is Don Cooper. What has Cooper done to make him better? Name me the most prominent baseball person who has said anything negative about the job Walker does? Walker yelled at Kenny so you don't like him. It wasn't long ago you used to have smart ass comments for anyone that said anything negative about Ozzie, but Kenny doesn't like Ozzie anymore, so neither do you. Walker is far better than most give him credit. That is the bottom line. You can say he sucks all you want, but Konerko, Thome, AJP, Dye, CLee, Magglio, Crede, Iguchi, Everett, Ramirez, Rowand show otherwise, and we are still waiting for a bust with the Sox to become a star some place else, because face it, there has to be a Don Cooper of hitting out there somewhere, and if you read this board regularly you will know once Walker leaves, so does any problem with the offense.

 

Way to change the goalposts there.

[Dick Allen]

Way to change the goalposts there.

Didn't change any goalposts. Greg Walker is a fine hitting coach. No one has left and become the HOFer a lot of people believe every hitter on the Sox should be. He has had a lot of success with others. You choose to look the other way because he yelled at your boy. That's fine. Walker will be gone. I just hope KW is smart enough to know that they isn't going to automatically make guys who haven't hit start to hit.

 

You're slurping Cooper about Humber. Its only fair then to give Walker credit for De Aza, a guy that failed elsewhere. I don't know how much Walker has to do with his success. I'm being honest. You just assume Cooper has EVERYTHING to do with Humber's. I find that funny. If you're giving the pitching coach credit for any pitcher who does better than expected, it is reasonable to give the hitting coach the same recognition.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Its only fair then to give Walker credit for De Aza, a guy that failed elsewhere.

No he simply did not. He got hurt.

[VictoryMC98]

No he simply did not. He got hurt.

 

In 2007...

[Dick Allen]

No he simply did not. He got hurt.

That's why they waived him? Get real. I'll say the same about Humber.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

That's why they waived him? Get real. I'll say the same about Humber.

Yes. He got hurt, and the guy missed most of the 2007 and all of the 2008 seasons. By the time he played another game in the Marlins org, it was mid 2009, and Chris Coghlan won rookie of the year in their OF. He was waived after playing 1/2 of a season in their minors in 2009, despite hitting .300 with an .876 OPS coming off an injury that cost him nearly 2 full years.

 

He went nearly 2 full years without an at bat, then came back and hit .300 at AAA.

[Wanne]

You guys can argue all you want til you're blue in the face...nobody's gonna concede. Bottom line...it's time for a fresh approach within the entire organization. Walker, Cora, Baines, Ozzie...and hopefully Kenny. It's stagnant now...but at least an entire new staff IMO.

 

And a question...what was DeAza hitting in AAA before he came up? I really don't even think putting a comparison of what DeAza's done due to Walker is realistic. How much time has he spent around DeAza...besides ST? Maybe Chambliss should be getting the credit.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Wanne

[Balta1701]

And a question...what was DeAza hitting in AAA before he came up? I really don't even think putting a comparison of what DeAza's done due to Walker is realistic. How much time has he spent around DeAza...besides ST? Maybe Chambliss should be getting the credit.

He hit .302 with the Knights in a full year in 2010 (.366 OBP, .800 OPS), and was hitting .322 (.378/.871) in 2011. He was tearing the cover off the ball.

[Dick Allen]

He hit .302 with the Knights in a full year in 2010 (.366 OBP, .800 OPS), and was hitting .322 (.378/.871) in 2011. He was tearing the cover off the ball.

Morel did well in AAA, Beckham did well in AAA, so if it automatically just rolls over...................................please explain.

[Wanne]

Morel did well in AAA, Beckham did well in AAA, so if it automatically just rolls over...................................please explain.

 

Not following. I think you just contradicted your argument...

 

[caulfield12]

Konerko, Thome (Hall of Fame track before he arrived), AJP (had put up OPS numbers elsewhere than he has in a "hitter's park", Dye (what did Walker do to fix him besides KW simply signing a talented guy who was injured?), CLee (really?), Magglio (double really?), Crede (maybe), Iguchi (he was already an established veteran in Japan, unless you can find some direct quotes attributing his success to any work with Walker), Everett (he was a much better hitter with other teams before he came to Chicago), Ramirez (once again...based on reputation/expectations, but he has regressed since his rookie year and claiming Ramirez is a lot like criticizing Walker now because Viciedo hasn't hit for any power in 2011), Rowand (including Crede and Rowand is a lot like listing Danks-Floyd-Quentin-Ramirez in the KW curriculum vitae while conveniently skipping everything which has happened the last 3 years as if it didn't exist)[/i]

 

How has Alexei Ramirez improved as a hitter since 2008? He pulls nearly every ball to the left side of the infield. He can't bunt. He's not a good situational hitter, taking nearly the same approach from AB to AB and no matter what the count is. A guy with his speed and ability hitting into so many double plays? He's been the most frustrating player (after Beckham/Dunn/Rios) to watch offensively this season. He's left perhaps more important runners in key situations in scoring position than any Sox hitter not in the aforementioned AXIS OF EVIL.

 

As far as credit goes, Walker deserves SOME for Morel. But you can just as easily argue that he didn't get Brent to take the approach he's currently using when the games actually mattered or counted. If you look at his career history, he's always adjusted and improved at every level in the 2nd half of each season, albeit much more quickly than he did this year (obviously, the majors is the biggest jump). That seems more to do with Morel as a baseball player and his baseball IQ than anything to do with Walker per se.

Edited September 25, 2011 by caulfield12