Sox best hitter endorses Walker

[caulfield12]

Morel did well in AAA, Beckham did well in AAA, so if it automatically just rolls over...................................please explain.

 

 

If anything, that would argue the minor league coaches helped the most to build his success and when he eventually failed and the league adjusted to him, Walker didn't have any answers until halfway through 2010 and none this year.

 

By the way, DET really seemed to go on a tear when their "beloved" pitching coach was fired mid-season. It doesn't always help as a rule, but quite a few times it does.

Edited September 25, 2011 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Not following. I think you just contradicted your argument...

Why is it a contradiction? Just because a guy is hitting well in AAA, doesn't mean it rolls over to the major leagues. There are a lot of people that hit well in the minors that couldn't hit in the majors. He's hit well in the minors before, it didn't translate. All of Cooper's projects have done well in the minor leagues. The fact is you have to do well in the minor leagues to be called up to the majors. Its funny how it works. If Brent Morel's Sept is not a mirage, he just figured it out on his own. If Gavin Floyd's 2008 wasn't a mirage, its because Don Cooper fixed him. If Phil Humber pitches like the 4th or 5th starter he didn't pitch for elsewhere, Don Cooper made it happen. If Alejandro De Aza consistently hits .320 this season, Greg Walker did nothing, he was going to do that, he figured it out on his own or some minor league hitting coach got through to him. It can't be Walker, a caller into Rongey says he sucks, some posters on Soxtalk says he sucks, and Dan Berstein says he sucks. Therefore, he sucks. If Konerko loves him and Rowand loves him, those guys know nothing. Listen to the talk shows. That's where real baseball is spoken.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

If anything, that would argue the minor league coaches helped the most to build his success and when he eventually failed and the league adjusted to him, Walker didn't have any answers until halfway through 2010 and none this year.

 

By the way, DET really seemed to go on a tear when their "beloved" pitching coach was fired mid-season. It doesn't always help as a rule, but quite a few times it does.

How much did it help Detroit's pitching? I would think acquiring Fister was probably the best tonic. Porcello, Penny, Scherzer, haven't had dramatic improvement. Verlander is Verlander, I don't think he became any better. Detroit can hit, I don't know what that has to do with the pitching coach.

[Dick Allen]

Konerko, Thome (Hall of Fame track before he arrived), AJP (had put up OPS numbers elsewhere than he has in a "hitter's park", Dye (what did Walker do to fix him besides KW simply signing a talented guy who was injured?), CLee (really?), Magglio (double really?), Crede (maybe), Iguchi (he was already an established veteran in Japan, unless you can find some direct quotes attributing his success to any work with Walker), Everett (he was a much better hitter with other teams before he came to Chicago), Ramirez (once again...based on reputation/expectations, but he has regressed since his rookie year and claiming Ramirez is a lot like criticizing Walker now because Viciedo hasn't hit for any power in 2011), Rowand (including Crede and Rowand is a lot like listing Danks-Floyd-Quentin-Ramirez in the KW curriculum vitae while conveniently skipping everything which has happened the last 3 years as if it didn't exist)[/i]

 

How has Alexei Ramirez improved as a hitter since 2008? He pulls nearly every ball to the left side of the infield. He can't bunt. He's not a good situational hitter, taking nearly the same approach from AB to AB and no matter what the count is. A guy with his speed and ability hitting into so many double plays? He's been the most frustrating player (after Beckham/Dunn/Rios) to watch offensively this season. He's left perhaps more important runners in key situations in scoring position than any Sox hitter not in the aforementioned AXIS OF EVIL.

 

As far as credit goes, Walker deserves SOME for Morel. But you can just as easily argue that he didn't get Brent to take the approach he's currently using when the games actually mattered or counted. If you look at his career history, he's always adjusted and improved at every level in the 2nd half of each season, albeit much more quickly than he did this year (obviously, the majors is the biggest jump). That seems more to do with Morel as a baseball player and his baseball IQ than anything to do with Walker per se.

Your bolded part just proves that Walker could only be average in your mind if everyone is succesful. Konerko gives him credit for fixing him. So did Rowand. AJP was pretty damn good. If Jermanine Dye was a 40 homer guy, the Sox probably wouldn't have been able to sign him for $5 million. Ramirez has been a lot better than projected. The one confirmed scout that was on here when he signed said he was Omar Infante with less power. You are just proving that if guys hit, its because they hit before. If they don't hit, its because of Walker, which is totally opposite of how pitching is viewed.

 

Has Floyd regressed from 2008? And maybe his 2008 was just growing up as is ERA with the Sox in 2007 was over 5.00. Danks wasn't so hot this year. Javy Vazquez sucked 2 of the 3 years he was here, then went to Atlanta and was awesome. Wasn't Contreras a star in Cuba? Using your Morel argument, why didn't Cooper get what AZ got out of Hudson right away and save the Sox some money? Hudson was pretty good with them right away. Every little bit of success a pitcher has with the Sox is credited to Cooper. For hitters, they have a minor league history of getting better, they have had success elsewhere, its just guys adjusting to the major leagues, it has nothing to do with Walker. Fine. I would just like you to be consistent. That's all I've ever asked. If you can give Morel all the credit for adjusting, shouldn't you be giving Beckham all the blame for not? If guys hit elsewhere before so Walker gets no credit if they do well here, then when they get out of slumps or figure stuff out is on them. Correct? So really Dunn and Rios have had success elsewhere, Rios even had success here for a little while. It therefore can't be on Walker they can't hit now. He doesn't get credit for keeping others hitting or snapping out of slumps every player goes through, he shouldn't be blamed if they can't snap out of it.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Texsox]

Good point regarding Coop not getting scrutinized as closely as Walker. IIRC Peavy's injury was partially blamed by not warming up properly, why isn't that blamed on Cooper? If it was a hitter not taking BP, Walker would be run out of town. So maybe a complete cleaning house is in order. Let the next manager bring in a completely new staff.

[Dick Allen]

Good point regarding Coop not getting scrutinized as closely as Walker. IIRC Peavy's injury was partially blamed by not warming up properly, why isn't that blamed on Cooper? If it was a hitter not taking BP, Walker would be run out of town. So maybe a complete cleaning house is in order. Let the next manager bring in a completely new staff.

For the record, I'm not blaming Cooper for Peavy's injury, but I clearly remember the game when that lat detached. That particular day, he maybe threw 15 pitches in the bullpen before the game. My friend and I were astonished. I don't know if it was because he was in pain and knew something was wrong or what. I also don't know if the lat was partially detatched at the time or it became detatched all at once. But the night Peavy called it a season in 2010, he wasn't in the bullpen more than 2 or 3 minutes before the game.

[Texsox]

For the record, I'm not blaming Cooper for Peavy's injury, but I clearly remember the game when that lat detached. That particular day, he maybe threw 15 pitches in the bullpen before the game. My friend and I were astonished. I don't know if it was because he was in pain and knew something was wrong or what. I also don't know if the lat was partially detatched at the time or it became detatched all at once. But the night Peavy called it a season in 2010, he wasn't in the bullpen more than 2 or 3 minutes before the game.

 

I'm not blaming Cooper either. At this point in their careers veterans like Peavy should know how to prepare. But it highlights how Coop can do no wrong and Walker can do no right. The truth is obviously somewhere in the middle.

[caulfield12]

Why don't the New York Yankees want to interview Greg Walker to be their hitting coach?

 

Why did the Sox deny permission to speak to Cooper if he wasn't seen as an overall "plus" to the organization?

 

Konerko and Rowand were pretty good before they ever became starters for the White Sox. Both were high draft picks. AJ Pierzynski had already been an All-Star with the Twins. Jermaine Dye was a consistent 24-30 homer guy when he was healthy. The only reason they were able to get him so cheaply was because of the broken leg and concerns about his diminished range playing the outfield every day.

 

So, let's say we credit Walker with Lillbridge, Morel and DeAza.

 

The counterargument....we'll name 12-15 pitchers who were basically given up for dead by their organizations and who made significant impacts for the Chicago White Sox.

 

Konerko is the only one who has steadily improved. Quentin and Ramirez both have regressed from 2008. So have Danks and Floyd. That's yet another big reason we're nowhere close to first place, all the other blatant weaknesses nothwithstanding.

 

Do you really believe that trading Hudson had more to do with Cooper than KW? Using the same logic, Cooper was a miracle worker to get what he got out of Brandon McCarthy...preventing him from fallling apart physically until we could make the trade for the more durable Danks.

 

The Beckham situation might be 100% on Gordon, for all we know. We do know that what they're doing simply isn't working or Gordon isn't listening or capable of taking what they're practicing and applying it consistently in game situations. If there are enough players in that category, usually the coach is changed before you trade or give away $75-100 million worth of investment.

 

Maybe the majority of this team has tuned out KW, Ozzie, the entire coaching staff, who knows?

 

At this point, I'll give up Cooper or Buehrle if it means Guillen, Walker and KW are all gone, too.

 

Really, nobody can be blamed or praised for anything because coaches are just facilitators and not responsible for the performance on the field...until it becomes easier to fire them than to replace the entire roster.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Why don't the New York Yankees want to interview Greg Walker to be their hitting coach?

 

Why did the Sox deny permission to speak to Cooper if he wasn't seen as an overall "plus" to the organization?

 

Konerko and Rowand were pretty good before they ever became starters for the White Sox. Both were high draft picks. AJ Pierzynski had already been an All-Star with the Twins. Jermaine Dye was a consistent 24-30 homer guy when he was healthy. The only reason they were able to get him so cheaply was because of the broken leg and concerns about his diminished range playing the outfield every day.

 

So, let's say we credit Walker with Lillbridge, Morel and DeAza.

 

The counterargument....we'll name 12-15 pitchers who were basically given up for dead by their organizations and who made significant impacts for the Chicago White Sox.

 

Konerko is the only one who has steadily improved. Quentin and Ramirez both have regressed from 2008. So have Danks and Floyd. That's yet another big reason we're nowhere close to first place, all the other blatant weaknesses nothwithstanding.

 

Do you really believe that trading Hudson had more to do with Cooper than KW? Using the same logic, Cooper was a miracle worker to get what he got out of Brandon McCarthy...preventing him from fallling apart physically until we could make the trade for the more durable Danks.

 

The Beckham situation might be 100% on Gordon, for all we know. We do know that what they're doing simply isn't working or Gordon isn't listening or capable of taking what they're practicing and applying it consistently in game situations. If there are enough players in that category, usually the coach is changed before you trade or give away $75-100 million worth of investment.

 

Maybe the majority of this team has tuned out KW, Ozzie, the entire coaching staff, who knows?

 

At this point, I'll give up Cooper or Buehrle if it means Guillen, Walker and KW are all gone, too.

 

Really, nobody can be blamed or praised for anything because coaches are just facilitators and not responsible for the performance on the field...until it becomes easier to fire them than to replace the entire roster.

First off the New York Yankees weren't looking for a hitting coach. Secondly, the Yankees hired Larry Rothschild, so he must be the second greatest pitching coach in history. I have no idea what role Cooper played with the Hudson trade. I do know they said that Cooper had been dying to work with Jackson, and Jackson was pretty good with the Sox, however, you were saying Morel was struggling and if Walker had the answers, why did it take so long? I just countered with Hudson, because he wasn't very impressive before he was traded and suddenly became unhittable, and even had some comments about how they do things differently in AZ. Your posts are just the typical Don Cooper is responsible for all great things by pitchers, and anything that goes wrong is clearly not his problem vs. Greg Walker is at fault if anything goes wrong with the hitters but if they are doing well its because at one time they were highly touted or have had success elsewhere. Its been argued too much. The bottom line is they are and always have been looked at differently. Its amazing the Sox are 9th in the AL in ERA. That's not WS material. The good news is Walker is out and next year we will see a new hitting coach and the White Sox offense will take off just like the Cubs offense did when they brought in the HOF hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Steve9347]

I think Dick Allen is just an AUTObot that supports Greg Walker. He's not an actual human who puts thought to keyboard. It cannot be possible.

[BigSqwert]

I think Dick Allen is just an AUTObot that supports Greg Walker. He's not an actual human who puts thought to keyboard. It cannot be possible.

Actually, has anyone ever seen him in the same room as Greg Walker? Food for thought.

[iamshack]

For the record, I'm not blaming Cooper for Peavy's injury, but I clearly remember the game when that lat detached. That particular day, he maybe threw 15 pitches in the bullpen before the game. My friend and I were astonished. I don't know if it was because he was in pain and knew something was wrong or what. I also don't know if the lat was partially detatched at the time or it became detatched all at once. But the night Peavy called it a season in 2010, he wasn't in the bullpen more than 2 or 3 minutes before the game.

From what I recall, the coaching staff had been on him about his warm-up routine, but they ultimately deferred to Peavy's judgment. You can only make a player of Peavy's status do so much.

[iamshack]

Actually, has anyone ever seen him in the same room as Greg Walker? Food for thought.

I've asked him repeatedly what his relationship is to Walker, but he ignores the question.

 

If you remember back a few years, DA was the same way with Juan Uribe. It was later revealed that Uribe bought DA dinner at some buffet or something.

[BigSqwert]

And DA, I kid because I care. You're one of my favorite posters on this site. I just think you're crazy with your Walker love.

[Kyyle23]

This is the song that never ends,

It just goes on and on, my friends.

Some people started singing it not knowing what it was,

And now they just keep singing it forever just because...

[Texsox]

Why did the Sox deny permission to speak to Cooper if he wasn't seen as an overall "plus" to the organization?

 

Excellent point. And we should add

 

Why have the Sox blocked Ozzie from going to the Marlins if he isn't seen as an overall "plus" to the organization?

[Kyyle23]

Excellent point. And we should add

Why have the Sox blocked Ozzie from going to the Marlins if he isn't seen as an overall "plus" to the organization?

 

They didnt block him. The return they asked for was rejected

[Texsox]

They didnt block him. The return they asked for was rejected

 

Which is the same situation with Cooper. They would have received nothing in return, so they denied the Yankees request.

[Texsox]

As Cooper ever produced an ace? Cy Young winner? League leader in anything besides innings? Has any player come out and endorsed him?

[caulfield12]

First off the New York Yankees weren't looking for a hitting coach. Secondly, the Yankees hired Larry Rothschild, so he must be the second greatest pitching coach in history. I have no idea what role Cooper played with the Hudson trade. I do know they said that Cooper had been dying to work with Jackson, and Jackson was pretty good with the Sox, however, you were saying Morel was struggling and if Walker had the answers, why did it take so long? I just countered with Hudson, because he wasn't very impressive before he was traded and suddenly became unhittable, and even had some comments about how they do things differently in AZ. Your posts are just the typical Don Cooper is responsible for all great things by pitchers, and anything that goes wrong is clearly not his problem vs. Greg Walker is at fault if anything goes wrong with the hitters but if they are doing well its because at one time they were highly touted or have had success elsewhere. Its been argued too much. The bottom line is they are and always have been looked at differently. Its amazing the Sox are 9th in the AL in ERA. That's not WS material. The good news is Walker is out and next year we will see a new hitting coach and the White Sox offense will take off just like the Cubs offense did when they brought in the HOF hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo.

 

 

What were they at the time of the Jackson trade? I would guess they were somewhere between 4th and 6th. Why would you expect the pitching to do so much better than the hitters? Are you suddenly expecting the same results as the Padres, Mariners, Tigers and Giants get because of their pitch-friendly outfields?

 

Your facile comparison of ERA isn't adjusting AT ALL for the park they play 81 of their home games in. Why were we 10th or 11th in the American League for most of this season in scoring runs, the number that is much more relevant than batting average (sorry Greg and Juan Pierre).

 

Why don't we hit well in one of the easiest parks to hit a home run in? Why have we been far below average at home compared to the rest of the AL from 2009-2011? How many runs have been charged to the pitching staff that were plays which/could should have been made by Juan Pierre or Alex Rios but weren't ruled as errors? Are you taking that into account, as well? Rios and Pierre have been atrocious in the outfield for much of this season.

 

Now what, you're going to argue they were first in the AL in offense after the first week of the season?

 

Rudy Jaramillo is one example. And it's not like the Cubs' offense isn't better than ours.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

As Cooper ever produced an ace? Cy Young winner? League leader in anything besides innings? Has any player come out and endorsed him?

 

 

Ummmm, Esteban Loaiza and Jose Contreras say HELLO. In 2003, and 2005/06, those were the two dominant pitchers in the AL for huge stretches of those seasons.

 

The White Sox have led the American League (and I think the entire majors) in quality starts pitched since 2003. If not the most important stat, it's certainly one of the Top 3 if you're going to judge a staff (WHIP would be another).

 

What offensive statistic can Greg Walker claim? Leading in HBP?

 

Mark Buehrle is the only common pitcher we can look at over the entire decade and he's absolutely maxxed out the results he can get....or would you argue he should have been in Cy Young contention?

 

 

On the other hand, Greg Walker has Carlos Quentin's 2008 season...although I never read anywhere that Carlos gave all the credit for his MVP run to Mr. Walker.

 

Maybe we need to do like WSI and have our own version of Mark L. or whatever from Idaho interview every single pitcher that has pitched for the Sox and see how of their success they attribute to Don Cooper.

Edited September 25, 2011 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

So one or two players in six years have outstanding seasons is enough for a pitching coach, is it enough for the hitting coach? Just saying we've anointed Coop as the god of all pitching coaches, and I'll agree he's our best position coach, but maybe he looks good because he's surrounded by idiots.

[Milkman delivers]

What really are you getting out of him? He's 4th or 5th starter material, like Bruce Chen. Occassionally they will throw decently for a season. You are absolutely postive the only reason Humber is having any success is Don Cooper. What has Cooper done to make him better? Name me the most prominent baseball person who has said anything negative about the job Walker does? Walker yelled at Kenny so you don't like him. It wasn't long ago you used to have smart ass comments for anyone that said anything negative about Ozzie, but Kenny doesn't like Ozzie anymore, so neither do you. Walker is far better than most give him credit. That is the bottom line. You can say he sucks all you want, but Konerko, Thome, AJP, Dye, CLee, Magglio, Crede, Iguchi, Everett, Ramirez, Rowand show otherwise, and we are still waiting for a bust with the Sox to become a star some place else, because face it, there has to be a Don Cooper of hitting out there somewhere, and if you read this board regularly you will know once Walker leaves, so does any problem with the offense.

 

Never mind your insistence on this when nobody said it. You obviously won't drop it. The thing I really want to know is whether you actually know Walker in real life. Do you?

 

You've never answered that.

[caulfield12]

I asked 1000 random Chinese people over the weekend in Shanghai and they all preferred Don Cooper to Greg Walker.

 

They also said they would like to buy Ozzie a Tsingtao beer if he ever made it over here. And that they didn't understand that they played baseball in South Florida, they thought it was only beaches and LeBron/DWade show.

 

And Greg Walker is my second cousin and I still want him gone.

Edited September 25, 2011 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Which is the same situation with Cooper. They would have received nothing in return, so they denied the Yankees request.

 

Ok, so the Marlins and Sox engage in trade talks about Ozzie Guillen, and the Marlins say they wont send player X(rumored to be Logan Morrison) to the Sox, so the trade talks die off. And that is the same as the Yankees asking to speak to Cooper to be their pitching coach, and the Sox say no?

 

Sorry Tex, not the same thing at all. Their is a big difference between those situations, among the differences that a trade was actually being proposed and discussed, and the other was just a flat out denial to make a trade.