Sox best hitter endorses Walker

[Dick Allen]

Is he actually looking for a job as a pitching coach?

He was last winter

 

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/...pitching-coach/

 

And when he was fired

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3060643

 

If he's the reason guys shave 0.62 off their ERA its puzzling he's still looking for work. I think the study may be a little off.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

He was last winter

 

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/...pitching-coach/

 

And when he was fired

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3060643

 

If he's the reason guys shave 0.62 off their ERA its puzzling he's still looking for work. I think the study may be a little off.

If Ozzie's replacement wanted to bring in Mazzone as Cooper's replacement...I'd have zero complaints.

[Milkman delivers]

They attempted to talk to him. There's no guarantee they would have signed him. They gave Rothschild $2 million for 3 years. How much better are they now? How much better is the Cubs offense under Jaramillo? What happened to Leo Mazzone and the Orioles pitching staff when he bolted Atlanta and was thought of as the premier pitching coach? What makes coaches good pitching coaches and good hitting coaches are good pitchers and good hitters.

 

Has anyone ever requested to talk to Walker?

[caulfield12]

 

 

1) Ozzie's being brought to South Florida as much as a PR move...to be the new "face of the franchise" and help to sell tickets to the Hispanic population of South Florida...nobody would accuse the Yankees of hiring or wanting to hire Cooper having anything to do with selling tickets or bringing back to his roots, etc.

 

2) Jermaine Dye had a much longer track record of success with the Braves, Royals and A's. It's not inconsistent to say Cooper would get MORE credit for Dice K. Dice K hasn't even had one completely successful year with the Red Sox compared to expectations. In fact, no Japanese pitcher in history has had sustained success over more than a 2-3 year period as a starter. Hideo Nomo is the benchmark there. You will turn around and compare him to Contreras, but I'd still guess MORE fans of the Sox would give Cooper credit for turning around Jose than Greg Walker turning around Jermaine Dye in 2005. That's not to mention the fact that a pitching injury like Dice-K has/had is usually a career-killer, whereas NUMEROUS players (especially power hitters and not slappy speed guys have recovered from broken legs). Should we have a poll question about it?

 

3) Mazzone and Cox were also something of a package deal, like Guillen/Walker. I hardly doubt Mazzone at his age is hurting for money or desperate for a job.

[Dick Allen]

1) Ozzie's being brought to South Florida as much as a PR move...to be the new "face of the franchise" and help to sell tickets to the Hispanic population of South Florida...nobody would accuse the Yankees of hiring or wanting to hire Cooper having anything to do with selling tickets or bringing back to his roots, etc.

 

2) Jermaine Dye had a much longer track record of success with the Braves, Royals and A's. It's not inconsistent to say Cooper would get MORE credit for Dice K. Dice K hasn't even had one completely successful year with the Red Sox compared to expectations. In fact, no Japanese pitcher in history has had sustained success over more than a 2-3 year period as a starter. Hideo Nomo is the benchmark there. You will turn around and compare him to Contreras, but I'd still guess MORE fans of the Sox would give Cooper credit for turning around Jose than Greg Walker turning around Jermaine Dye in 2005. That's not to mention the fact that a pitching injury like Dice-K has/had is usually a career-killer, whereas NUMEROUS players (especially power hitters and not slappy speed guys have recovered from broken legs). Should we have a poll question about it?

 

3) Mazzone and Cox were also something of a package deal, like Guillen/Walker. I hardly doubt Mazzone at his age is hurting for money or desperate for a job.

JD had a 100 pt higher OPS with the Sox than with OAK. Dice K was 18-3 with a 2.90 ERA in 2008. If that's not successful, then how many White Sox pitchers have been successful under Cooper? Mazzone's last job wasn't with Cox and according to the articles isn't exactly voluntarily retired.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

And what is the park adjustment factor for losing 20-30 hits per season in Oakland on foul balls and balls that don't carry over the fence in night games or in April/May/September in the Bay Area?

 

I didn't realize that Dice-K was quite that good for one year...but that only supports the notion that Cooper did a superior job with Contreras because he didn't ever come close to that level of success with the Yankees.

 

It's the same thing with those Cooper critics blaming him for Jake Peavy this season. If he was the same Peavy who had a devastating slider, 95 MPH fastball, pitched half his games in PETCO and against mostly lousy offenses in the NL West AND WAS 100% HEALTHY, then you would have the right to criticize Cooper for Jake's 2011 season.

 

So, once again...if we do a poll question, will you have any doubt that more would agree that Cooper helped Jose significantly more in 2005 than Greg Walker helped Jermaine Dye?

Edited September 25, 2011 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

And what is the park adjustment factor for losing 20-30 hits per season in Oakland on foul balls and balls that don't carry over the fence in night games or in April/May/September in the Bay Area?

 

I didn't realize that Dice-K was quite that good for one year...but that only supports the notion that Cooper did a superior job with Contreras because he didn't ever come close to that level of success with the Yankees.

 

It's the same thing with those Cooper critics blaming him for Jake Peavy this season. If he was the same Peavy who had a devastating slider, 95 MPH fastball, pitched half his games in PETCO and against mostly lousy offenses in the NL West AND WAS 100% HEALTHY, then you would have the right to criticize Cooper for Jake's 2011 season.

 

So, once again...if we do a poll question, will you have any doubt that more would agree that Cooper helped Jose significantly more in 2005 than Greg Walker helped Jermaine Dye?

I agree with what the results would be but that's not based on reality. Contreras had a little success with the Yankees in 2003. In fact, one of his most impressive performances was against the Sox, and of the 4 organizations he has pitched for, his highest ERA is with the Sox. He wasn't so great with the Sox for a while and I believe, as do others, El Duque had a lot to do with his White Sox success, but as is par for the course, any pitcher with success is because of Don Cooper. Any pitcher who isn't successful with the Sox is because either they weren't good or ballpark factors. Any hitter who struggles with the Sox is because Greg Walker is an idiot. Any hitter who is successful with the Sox is because they are just a good hitter. Walker has zero to do with it. We will see if the same line of thinking sticks with the new hitting coach.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

I agree with what the results would be but that's not based on reality. Contreras had a little success with the Yankees in 2003. In fact, one of his most impressive performances was against the Sox, and of the 4 organizations he has pitched for, his highest ERA is with the Sox. He wasn't so great with the Sox for a while and I believe, as do others, El Duque had a lot to do with his White Sox success, but as is par for the course, any pitcher with success is because of Don Cooper. Any pitcher who isn't successful with the Sox is because either they weren't good or ballpark factors. Any hitter who struggles with the Sox is because Greg Walker is an idiot. Any hitter who is successful with the Sox is because they are just a good hitter. Walker has zero to do with it. We will see if the same line of thinking sticks with the new hitting coach.

 

 

And what would your spin be if Beckham, Dunn or Rios had Top 10 MVP caliber seasons in 2012 with a new hitting coach?

 

Dunn is an experienced veteran with a long baseball track record on the back of his TOPPS card and knows how to hit. He's almost in shape and 100% recovered from the appendectomy. Rios had success in Toronto (reaching the All-Star game) AND with Walker for 3 or 4 months out of 14 total months playing with the Sox. Beckham was the Rookie of the Year as voted on by his peers and a top first-round draft pick.

 

In your same "anti-Cooper" world, then a new hitting coach wouldn't deserve any credit and you'd probably be upset by it because you would have to go on defending Walker even though he was out of baseball.

 

So those same message board posters would back Cooper over Walker, why is that? Perception isn't reality? Only baseball insiders and scouts and front office personnel know and appreciate the true value of Mr. Walker?

Edited September 25, 2011 by caulfield12

[Jordan4life_2007]

I agree with what the results would be but that's not based on reality. Contreras had a little success with the Yankees in 2003. In fact, one of his most impressive performances was against the Sox, and of the 4 organizations he has pitched for, his highest ERA is with the Sox. He wasn't so great with the Sox for a while and I believe, as do others, El Duque had a lot to do with his White Sox success, but as is par for the course, any pitcher with success is because of Don Cooper. Any pitcher who isn't successful with the Sox is because either they weren't good or ballpark factors. Any hitter who struggles with the Sox is because Greg Walker is an idiot. Any hitter who is successful with the Sox is because they are just a good hitter. Walker has zero to do with it. We will see if the same line of thinking sticks with the new hitting coach.

 

Sorry, dude. Contreras started game 1 of three consecutive playoff series after being banished by a club that had won a mega bidding war for his services (i.e. they gave up on him). That accomplishment >>>>>>>>> anything positive Walker has done.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Balta1701]

That accomplishment >>>>>>>>> anything positive Walker has done.

Well, maybe taking Konerko from a guy struggling to get over injury to one of the most reliable bats in the league is pretty close...

[caulfield12]

Sorry, dude. Contreras started game 1 of three consecutive playoff series after being banished by a club that had won a mega bidding war for his services (i.e. they gave up on him). That accomplishment >>>>>>>>> anything positive Walker has done.

 

 

Gave up on Contreras AND El Duque.

 

KW > Cashman

 

Just kidding. But we'll never really know unless they traded positions for 5-7 years and Cashman had to rebuild the Sox with a $90-105 million payroll and no budget for the draft nor the ability to sign players from the Asian market, Central America, Venezuela or the Dominican.

[Balta1701]

Gave up on Contreras AND El Duque.

 

KW > Cashman

 

Just kidding. But we'll never really know unless they traded positions for 5-7 years and Cashman had to rebuild the Sox with a $90-105 million payroll and no budget for the draft nor the ability to sign players from the Asian market, Central America, Venezuela or the Dominican.

Technically, at those times...the White Sox's payroll was $55-$75 million.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Well, maybe taking Konerko from a guy struggling to get over injury to one of the most reliable bats in the league is pretty close...

 

Konerko was no scrub from '99 through '02 (no Walker) - .294/.356/.499/.855 OPS during that stretch. It's not even close.

[Balta1701]

Konerko was no scrub from '99 through '02 (no Walker) - .294/.356/.499/.855 OPS during that stretch. It's not even close.

Note that you excluded his 2003 pre-walker slump.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Note that you excluded his 2003 pre-walker slump.

 

And you can't mention '03 without mentioning the injury. Healthy PK produces. Even if you want to give Walker some credit, it's nowhere near the level of credit Cooper deserves for turning Loaiza, Contreras, Thornton and Floyd around.

[Balta1701]

And you can't mention '03 without mentioning the injury. Healthy PK produces. Even if you want to give Walker some credit, it's nowhere near the level of credit Cooper deserves for turning Loaiza, Contreras, Thornton and Floyd around.

Loaiza fell completely apart in 2004, conveniently at the same time that public testing started though.

[caulfield12]

Technically, at those times...the White Sox's payroll was $55-$75 million.

 

 

I'm just referring to the situation Cashman would face in Chicago if they traded jobs at the current moment.

 

So yes, that 2004-2005 run for the Sox was more impressive than anything Cashman did, arguably. Then again, winning 4 out of 5 World Series and then almost winning again in 2001 against Arizona will probably trump the KW legacy.

 

It's sort of like comparing Phil Jackson to Larry Brown. Give Brown a roster over time of 2 of the following .... Jordan/Pippen/Shaq/Kobe and he's the greatest NBA coach in history. Apples and oranges.

 

On the other hand, it will be an interesting offseason if Boston chokes away their lead. Epstein might become available, but no way he'd pick the White Sox over the Cubs.

[caulfield12]

Loaiza fell completely apart in 2004, conveniently at the same time that public testing started though.

 

 

Then Dick Allen might want to retract his Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez "credit taking."

 

Actually, that makes KW look all the smarter...until he gave up Swisher for nothing to Cashman.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Loaiza fell completely apart in 2004, conveniently at the same time that public testing started though.

 

Reclamation projects aren't supposed to last forever. You bring them in, see if they're fixable, ride them for as long as you can, move on. Sure, Loaiza fell off in '04. But that was one year after he was the AL starting pitcher for the all-star game. And the Yankees knew that. They probably thought they could turn him around based on that. And without Loaiza, obviously, there's no Jose Contreras. So one could argue that without Loaiza's '03, there's no '05 World Series banner hanging at the Cell.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It's really this simple:

 

Kenny Williams

Ozzie Guillen

Don Cooper

Greg Walker

 

You're the boss. You call the shots. You make the decision that you're canning three of the four. Which one do you keep? If it takes you more than a tenth of a second to answer that question, you're delusional or you're a family member or close personal friend of the three obvious guys that deserve pink slips.

[Dick Allen]

Sorry, dude. Contreras started game 1 of three consecutive playoff series after being banished by a club that had won a mega bidding war for his services (i.e. they gave up on him). That accomplishment >>>>>>>>> anything positive Walker has done.

OK, we will forget the pair of first inning 3 run homers Konerko hit in the ALCS, to get the Sox going and his GS in game 2 of the WS. BTW,Contreras was the only losing pitcher for the Sox in the 2005 postseason.

[Jordan4life_2007]

OK, we will forget the pair of first inning 3 run homers Konerko hit in the ALCS, to get the Sox going and his GS in game 2 of the WS. BTW,Contreras was the only losing pitcher for the Sox in the 2005 postseason.

 

DA, that's some borderline elrockin' s*** right there. I'm disappointed in you.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Balta1701]

DA, that's some borderline elrockin' s*** right there. I'm disappointed in you.

Yeah...that's really pushing it to find a downside.

[Texsox]

It's really this simple:

 

Kenny Williams

Ozzie Guillen

Don Cooper

Greg Walker

 

You're the boss. You call the shots. You make the decision that you're canning three of the four. Which one do you keep? If it takes you more than a tenth of a second to answer that question, you're delusional or you're a family member or close personal friend of the three obvious guys that deserve pink slips.

 

Actually if you are the boss, you would have the choice of keeping all four, or three, or two, or one, or none! And if you are the boss, and you're deciding which coaches are being hired or fired, why even hire a GM or manager?

[Texsox]

OK, we will forget the pair of first inning 3 run homers Konerko hit in the ALCS, to get the Sox going and his GS in game 2 of the WS. BTW,Contreras was the only losing pitcher for the Sox in the 2005 postseason.

awesome