Sox best hitter endorses Walker

[iamshack]

So one or two players in six years have outstanding seasons is enough for a pitching coach, is it enough for the hitting coach? Just saying we've anointed Coop as the god of all pitching coaches, and I'll agree he's our best position coach, but maybe he looks good because he's surrounded by idiots.

Why are people fighting this?

 

It is absolutely crystal clear that the professional baseball industry views Don Cooper as one of the best pitching coaches in the game. This is stated constantly by national broadcasters, opposing team's broadcasters, writers, commentators, etc. This is further evidenced by a long list of success stories with pitchers who had experienced little or none previously in their major league careers. This is further evidenced by the number of quality starts made in Cooper's tenure here. This is further evidenced by an excellent record of health by our SPs during Cooper's tenure here.

 

Is his record spotless? No. Has he had some pitchers fail under his tutelage? Yes.

 

His body of work in a White Sox uniform is glaringly better than not only Greg Walker, but better than probably any coach in White Sox history, other than perhaps Walt Hriniak.

 

Twist the facts around as much as you want; play devil's advocate as much as you want. But this isn't that difficult.

 

Don Cooper has been one of the biggest reasons why this Club has experienced the success that it has, and it really isn't something that is up for debate.

Edited September 25, 2011 by iamshack

[Texsox]

Both people were wanted by other organizations, and in both cases deals were not done. We mention Coop is so valuable because another organization wanted him, then shouldn't we believe the same about Ozzie? Plus another organization was willing to give up something for Oz, the Yankees were not willing to give up anything for Cooper.

[Kyyle23]

Both people were wanted by other organizations, and in both cases deals were not done. We mention Coop is so valuable because another organization wanted him, then shouldn't we believe the same about Ozzie? Plus another organization was willing to give up something for Oz, the Yankees were not willing to give up anything for Cooper.

 

 

Because the Sox were willing to let Ozzie go for the right price. Not so with Cooper. Huge difference

 

 

Last time I checked, there was no asking for compensation for Cooper. Just a "No"

 

[Texsox]

So we hire a GM and saddle him with a manager he doesn't want. Now we'll hire a new manager and not let him pick his staff? Now, I'd probably question any manager that doesn't want Coop, but I still think you should give the new guy a chance to hire his staff. No more hiring someone then handcuffing them on decisions that should be theirs.

[Kyyle23]

So we hire a GM and saddle him with a manager he doesn't want. Now we'll hire a new manager and not let him pick his staff? Now, I'd probably question any manager that doesn't want Coop, but I still think you should give the new guy a chance to hire his staff. No more hiring someone then handcuffing them on decisions that should be theirs.

 

 

This is a different argument altogether. Plus, I highly doubt any manager/GM would take the Sox job and NOT want Cooper as their pitching coach, but of course you will debate this

[Texsox]

Because the Sox were willing to let Ozzie go for the right price. Not so with Cooper. Huge difference

 

 

Last time I checked, there was no asking for compensation for Cooper. Just a "No"

 

I agree there is a huge difference, the Yankees didn't even make an offer. And by the way, I think it is wrong to value Coop because another team wants him. Coop's value is the work he's done for the Sox which, as noted, has been very good. I really don't give a rip that the Yankees (OMG THE YANKEES) wanted him any more than I give a rip that the Marlins want Ozzie.

[Kyyle23]

I agree there is a huge difference, the Yankees didn't even make an offer.

 

Because they were told no. Because the Sox value Cooper more than they value Guillen. The End

[Texsox]

Because they were told no. Because the Sox value Cooper more than they value Guillen. The End

 

Exactly, so why does anyone care how much the Yankees value him?

 

I still find it funny that the club must value a guy more when they turn down nothing in return than when they turn down players in return.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

where is the rolleyes smily when you need it. jeebus cripes

[Milkman delivers]

I asked 1000 random Chinese people over the weekend in Shanghai and they all preferred Don Cooper to Greg Walker.

 

They also said they would like to buy Ozzie a Tsingtao beer if he ever made it over here. And that they didn't understand that they played baseball in South Florida, they thought it was only beaches and LeBron/DWade show.

 

And Greg Walker is my second cousin and I still want him gone.

 

[Milkman delivers]

Why are people fighting this?

 

It is absolutely crystal clear that the professional baseball industry views Don Cooper as one of the best pitching coaches in the game. This is stated constantly by national broadcasters, opposing team's broadcasters, writers, commentators, etc. This is further evidenced by a long list of success stories with pitchers who had experienced little or none previously in their major league careers. This is further evidenced by the number of quality starts made in Cooper's tenure here. This is further evidenced by an excellent record of health by our SPs during Cooper's tenure here.

 

Is his record spotless? No. Has he had some pitchers fail under his tutelage? Yes.

 

His body of work in a White Sox uniform is glaringly better than not only Greg Walker, but better than probably any coach in White Sox history, other than perhaps Walt Hriniak.

 

Twist the facts around as much as you want; play devil's advocate as much as you want. But this isn't that difficult.

 

Don Cooper has been one of the biggest reasons why this Club has experienced the success that it has, and it really isn't something that is up for debate.

 

Thank you!

[Milkman delivers]

Exactly, so why does anyone care how much the Yankees value him?

 

I still find it funny that the club must value a guy more when they turn down nothing in return than when they turn down players in return.

 

Because Dick Allen asked for proof of people around baseball talking up Cooper. The Yankees attempting to acquire him is proof of that.

[Texsox]

Because Dick Allen asked for proof of people around baseball talking up Cooper. The Yankees attempting to acquire him is proof of that.

 

Then that is also proof that people around baseball value Ozzie. Which really means jack s***.

[iamshack]

Then that is also proof that people around baseball value Ozzie. Which really means jack s***.

The argument is not Cooper versus Oz though...it's Cooper versus Walk.

[Milkman delivers]

Then that is also proof that people around baseball value Ozzie. Which really means jack s***.

 

You're diluting the argument for the sake of being heard. Ozzie has nothing to do with this.

[Texsox]

The fact that someone is wanted by another organization (even The YANKEES) is meaningless. If Walker was picked up by another organization after being let go would we suddenly think he was good? If Kenny came out and said the Angels inquired about Walker and we said no, would we think Walker was better? So valuing Coop because the Yankees wanted to talk to him (remember it was just an interview) is silly. It's the same as valuing Oz because the Marlins wanted to hire him and were willing to give up value to get him.

[Texsox]

I place no value on another team wanting one of our coaches. So it doesn't matter if the Yankees want Coop or the Marlins want Oz. Those teams are different with different needs.

 

I'm curious, why do some people place great value on the Yankees wanting to interview Coop while dismissing the Marlins making an offer for Oz? Seems like to be consistent you should value both the same.

[iamshack]

I place no value on another team wanting one of our coaches. So it doesn't matter if the Yankees want Coop or the Marlins want Oz. Those teams are different with different needs.

 

I'm curious, why do some people place great value on the Yankees wanting to interview Coop while dismissing the Marlins making an offer for Oz? Seems like to be consistent you should value both the same.

I think it's more another piece of supporting evidence in Cooper's favor rather than the sole reason for the disparity in their reputations around the league.

[Milkman delivers]

I think it's more another piece of supporting evidence in Cooper's favor rather than the sole reason for the disparity in their reputations around the league.

 

Exactly, and as I said, it's a form of proof that was specifically requested by another poster. It's rather simple.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I place no value on another team wanting one of our coaches. So it doesn't matter if the Yankees want Coop or the Marlins want Oz. Those teams are different with different needs.

 

I'm curious, why do some people place great value on the Yankees wanting to interview Coop while dismissing the Marlins making an offer for Oz? Seems like to be consistent you should value both the same.

 

The Yankees are arguably the premier franchise in all of team sports. The Marlins are, well, the Marlins.

[Dick Allen]

Because Dick Allen asked for proof of people around baseball talking up Cooper. The Yankees attempting to acquire him is proof of that.

They attempted to talk to him. There's no guarantee they would have signed him. They gave Rothschild $2 million for 3 years. How much better are they now? How much better is the Cubs offense under Jaramillo? What happened to Leo Mazzone and the Orioles pitching staff when he bolted Atlanta and was thought of as the premier pitching coach? What makes coaches good pitching coaches and good hitting coaches are good pitchers and good hitters.

[Dick Allen]

What were they at the time of the Jackson trade? I would guess they were somewhere between 4th and 6th. Why would you expect the pitching to do so much better than the hitters? Are you suddenly expecting the same results as the Padres, Mariners, Tigers and Giants get because of their pitch-friendly outfields?

 

Your facile comparison of ERA isn't adjusting AT ALL for the park they play 81 of their home games in. Why were we 10th or 11th in the American League for most of this season in scoring runs, the number that is much more relevant than batting average (sorry Greg and Juan Pierre).

 

Why don't we hit well in one of the easiest parks to hit a home run in? Why have we been far below average at home compared to the rest of the AL from 2009-2011? How many runs have been charged to the pitching staff that were plays which/could should have been made by Juan Pierre or Alex Rios but weren't ruled as errors? Are you taking that into account, as well? Rios and Pierre have been atrocious in the outfield for much of this season.

 

Now what, you're going to argue they were first in the AL in offense after the first week of the season?

 

Rudy Jaramillo is one example. And it's not like the Cubs' offense isn't better than ours.

I'll just leave you with this.

 

You said Walker should get no credit for Jermaine Dye because he was successful earlier. On another post you said if Dice K came to the Sox and was effective you would have to give Cooper credit. Dice K has had success before. How is that consistent?

[iamshack]

They attempted to talk to him. There's no guarantee they would have signed him. They gave Rothschild $2 million for 3 years. How much better are they now? How much better is the Cubs offense under Jaramillo? What happened to Leo Mazzone and the Orioles pitching staff when he bolted Atlanta and was thought of as the premier pitching coach? What makes coaches good pitching coaches and good hitting coaches are good pitchers and good hitters.

Mazzone agreed to join the Orioles staff because he and Sam Perlozzo were best friends. He obviously struggled to get the young Orioles arms to succeed in the vaunted AL East. That certainly doesn't diminish the staffs he presided over in Atlanta for so many years.

[Dick Allen]

Mazzone agreed to join the Orioles staff because he and Sam Perlozzo were best friends. He obviously struggled to get the young Orioles arms to succeed in the vaunted AL East. That certainly doesn't diminish the staffs he presided over in Atlanta for so many years.

As I said if you really want to be known as a great pitching coach, you are going to need great pitchers. Mazzone was as highly thought of as any coach in baseball. His last 14 years in Atlanta the Braves led the league in ERA 12 times. Even Don Cooper can't say that.Now he can't find a job. He wanted the Yankee job, but Rothschild was more impressive to the Yankees. Amazing how that works. You're a genius when you have Maddux and Glavine and Smoltz, but an idiot when you have Baltimore's staff. BTW, it didn't hurt the Orioles offered him a big bump in salary.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

As I said if you really want to be known as a great pitching coach, you are going to need great pitchers. Mazzone was as highly thought of as any coach in baseball. Now he can't find a job. BTW, it didn't hurt the Orioles offered him a big bump in salary.

Is he actually looking for a job as a pitching coach?

In his book The Baseball Economist, J.C. Bradbury titles a chapter, "How Good is Leo Mazzone?" Using statistical analysis, he analyzes whether Mazzone had a significant impact upon the pitchers that he coached. The sample is all pitchers who have pitched at least one year under Mazzone and one year under a different pitching coach. Bradbury found that Mazzone lowered the ERA of pitchers by an average of 0.64 points, and that after leaving Mazzone, pitchers' ERA increased by an average of 0.78 points. Bradbury believes that such an impact is deserving of Hall of Fame consideration.[2]