Ozzie/KW: When Did It Crack?

[StrangeSox]

Dealing with Ozzie guillen.

[LVSoxFan]

You mean like a stage parent kind of thing?

[Milkman delivers]

Well to be fair, the last time they drafted one of Ozzie's kids he didnt exactly leave on the best of circumstances. They drafted Carrie Schueler for the love of god, nepotism doesnt really matter here. Carrie however didnt get a twitter account and start making comments about front office personnel's dinner companions.

 

I can somewhat "understand" Ozzie being upset about the Sox not drafting his son higher when they had already done that with KW's son. But, didn't the Sox already overdraft on another one of Ozzie's children before they did the same with KW's kid?

[Buehrle>Wood]

What would be the "Ozzie problem" to which you refer?

It really has to be explained to you?

[oldsox]

Right after they won game four of the 2005 WS, with everyone still on the field, some TV guy stuck a mic in Ozzie's face and asked him the obligatory stupid questions, and Ozzie went on a semi-understandable rant, saying in broken Ozzie talk that he might not be back next year; then Kenny gets the mic and he said he doesn't even know if he has a Manager for 2006. The problem had already been created.

[whitesoxfan101]

The day Ozzie was hired. Heck, even going back to his interview for the job. The problems were masked by a 2nd year World Series, a 90 win 3rd year (which, combined with being defending champs, kept KW and Oz quiet) and a 5th year division title. The last 3 years really haven't had anything to mask the problems that have always been there, and they really reached the point of no return in 2010, even though the break won't happen until after the 2011 season. This ending should surprise nobody.

[Dick Allen]

The best thing that happened for us but the worst thing that happened for their relationship was winning the WS. Their egos couldn't take the other one getting credit for the victory, and it deteriorated and deteriorated. The Thome thing hurt, Oney's tweets didn't help much and Ozney not being picked in the first few rounds hurt, but Oney wouldn't have been tweeting what he was tweeting at the beginning if their relationship was solid.

[kitekrazy]

Or is it simply that when the team continues to fail, they both started fingering each other? And going to Daddy (JR) about it?

 

This and both have a different philosophy of what makes a good ball club. The rest is concocted by the media to turn this into soap opera.

Edited September 22, 2011 by kitekrazy

[winninguglyin83]

Kotsay/Thome, yes.

 

but let's not forget that both of Kenny's kiddos are playing in the sox system. One was picked wayyyyyyyy too high.

 

One of Ozzie's kids played A ball for a period and then got bounced.

 

then the sox failed to pick Ozzie's other son, not once but twice.

 

I think that -- along with the natural bruising that comes with two huge alpha male egos -- was also a major factor.

 

be gone -- both of them.

 

Neither one is worth the aggravation any longer.

 

I think Sox fans would be happier with a more cerebral approach -- like a Friedman.

 

 

[Quin]

Kotsay/Thome, yes.

 

but let's not forget that both of Kenny's kiddos are playing in the sox system. One was picked wayyyyyyyy too high.

 

One of Ozzie's kids played A ball for a period and then got bounced.

 

then the sox failed to pick Ozzie's other son, not once but twice.

 

I think that -- along with the natural bruising that comes with two huge alpha male egos -- was also a major factor.

 

be gone -- both of them.

 

Neither one is worth the aggravation any longer.

 

I think Sox fans would be happier with a more cerebral approach -- like a Friedman.

 

They picked Ozney once, but it was an "insult" to draft him so low, so they didn't draft him this year because of the drama. And Oney.

[caulfield12]

At first when I saw the thread title, I thought one of them was arrested for doing crack, lol.

 

I think the drafting issue was the icing on the cake. It's not far removed from the Wilder nonsense to give a kid who has no chance to make the majors that kind of a signing bonus. They never should have drafted any of their kids, period.

 

Thome/Kotsay....then Dunn/Viciedo throughout this year, and the directive not to play the highest salaried guys like Dunn/Rios (of course, Ozzie was making BOTH of them look dumb by keeping them in the line-up, not sure WHO looked worse, actually....probably Ozzie by a hair).

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Kotsay/Thome, yes.

 

but let's not forget that both of Kenny's kiddos are playing in the sox system. One was picked wayyyyyyyy too high.

 

One of Ozzie's kids played A ball for a period and then got bounced.

 

then the sox failed to pick Ozzie's other son, not once but twice.

 

I think that -- along with the natural bruising that comes with two huge alpha male egos -- was also a major factor.

 

be gone -- both of them.

 

Neither one is worth the aggravation any longer.

 

I think Sox fans would be happier with a more cerebral approach -- like a Friedman.

I agree they both need to be gone, but to be fair only one of KW's sons plays in the White Sox organization, and while he was drafted way too high, when he was Ozney's age when the Sox drafted Ozney, KW's kid was selected by the Sox in the 36th round and didn't sign. If Ozney was a top 3 round prospect like the Guillens believe, its hard to imagine why all the other organizations passed him over 100 times. Even the Marlins didn't feel Ozney was worth drafting.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

I agree they both need to be gone, but to be fair only one of KW's sons plays in the White Sox organization, and while he was drafted way too high, when he was Ozney's age when the Sox drafted Ozney, KW's kid was selected by the Sox in the 36th round and didn't sign. If Ozney was a top 3 round prospect like the Guillens believe, its hard to imagine why all the other organizations passed him over 100 times. Even the Marlins didn't feel Ozney was worth drafting.

 

There are two Williams boys in the Sox org.

[Balta1701]

I agree they both need to be gone, but to be fair only one of KW's sons plays in the White Sox organization, and while he was drafted way too high, when he was Ozney's age when the Sox drafted Ozney, KW's kid was selected by the Sox in the 36th round and didn't sign. If Ozney was a top 3 round prospect like the Guillens believe, its hard to imagine why all the other organizations passed him over 100 times. Even the Marlins didn't feel Ozney was worth drafting.

And KW's kid was selected by the Sox in round 5. A legit pick was spent on KW's kid.

The worst pick of the day belongs to the White Sox, who took GM Kenny Williams’ son in the fifth round. Kenny Williams Jr. is a senior at Wichita State who doesn’t even play every day and who was ruled academically ineligible for the 2007 season. He’s a good athlete and at least a 55 runner, but he’s 22 years old, played in 12 games in total prior to 2008, and wasn’t on most teams’ draft boards, although two or three other teams appeared to have had him inside the 10th round. It is hard to imagine that he would have been their 5th-round pick if his name was Kenny Smith, but the White Sox liked Kenny Jr.’s athleticism, something that was relatively scarce in this draft’s pool of college position players.

[StrangeSox]

I'm not sure why Jerry would allow that sort of nepotism.

[Steve9347]

The best thing that happened for us but the worst thing that happened for their relationship was winning the WS. Their egos couldn't take the other one getting credit for the victory, and it deteriorated and deteriorated. The Thome thing hurt, Oney's tweets didn't help much and Ozney not being picked in the first few rounds hurt, but Oney wouldn't have been tweeting what he was tweeting at the beginning if their relationship was solid.

This one probably best sums it up.

[shago]

Kenny wanted to hire Cito Gaston. The rumor at the time was that he wanted too much money, so JR forced Kenny to interview Ozzie.

JR is a cheap bastard despite conventional wisdom and Ozzie will be back because he's cheap on a relative basis and draws media and fan attention despite what we all think on Soxtalk

[witesoxfan]

JR is a cheap bastard despite conventional wisdom and Ozzie will be back because he's cheap on a relative basis and draws media and fan attention despite what we all think on Soxtalk

 

You say cheap bastard, I say smart businessman. Why pay for 2 managers when you can instead pay for 1? Seems like a bit of a waste, no?

 

Well that, and the $100+ million they spent this past offseason on free agents. That's not cheap. Reinsdorf has stressed ad nauseum that the Sox put whatever they make into the team. This is actually the first year they went above and beyond that and it will probably be the last for a while.

 

All that said, there's only 1 year left on Ozzie's contract, the tipping point has been beyond breached, and this team needs a change. There will be ways to make up for sunk costs and I don't see any possible way that Guillen is brought back.

[southsider2k5]

JR is a cheap bastard despite conventional wisdom and Ozzie will be back because he's cheap on a relative basis and draws media and fan attention despite what we all think on Soxtalk

 

We have a $125 million payroll, with a mostly empty stadium. If he was a cheap bastard he would have dumped every player with a decent contract that he could.

[shago]

We have a $125 million payroll, with a mostly empty stadium. If he was a cheap bastard he would have dumped every player with a decent contract that he could.

Welcome to the next 10 years ... He spent 125 because they still have enough advanced ticket sales and tv revenue due to past successes and made one final go at it given the aging roster. Now that the team stinks, is generally aging and has a couple bad contracts, we are in a rebuilding mode. JR (cheap/good business man/whatever) will be happy to have Ozzie back to oversee what will otherwise be a lousy couple years because he is still a media/fan draw regardless of how much most of us can't stand him ...

[Balta1701]

Welcome to the next 10 years ... He spent 125 because they still have enough advanced ticket sales and tv revenue due to past successes and made one final go at it given the aging roster. Now that the team stinks, is generally aging and has a couple bad contracts, we are in a rebuilding mode. JR (cheap/good business man/whatever) will be happy to have Ozzie back to oversee what will otherwise be a lousy couple years because he is still a media/fan draw regardless of how much most of us can't stand him ...

The problem is though that there's always a level where keeping a failing guy around because he's a fan draw turns around, and the fact that you're keeping a failing guy around drives people away.

 

I can't say how it would affect me were I a season ticket holder, but the lack of professionalism towards the people paying their salaries coming out of the front office has been a major turnoff for me. I still went to my 1 game, because I'm only in town for a brief stint every year. Would I upgrade to a 13 game or 26 game package if I were in the area? Prior to this year yeah...but I'd really be questioning spending that money next year.

[southsider2k5]

Welcome to the next 10 years ... He spent 125 because they still have enough advanced ticket sales and tv revenue due to past successes and made one final go at it given the aging roster. Now that the team stinks, is generally aging and has a couple bad contracts, we are in a rebuilding mode. JR (cheap/good business man/whatever) will be happy to have Ozzie back to oversee what will otherwise be a lousy couple years because he is still a media/fan draw regardless of how much most of us can't stand him ...

 

So let me make sure I get this... JR is a Cheap Bastard who in order to save two million on Ozzie Guillen is going to put really bad teams onto the field, cut payroll, and drive fans off, thus costing himself way more than two million dollars?

[shago]

So let me make sure I get this... JR is a Cheap Bastard who in order to save two million on Ozzie Guillen is going to put really bad teams onto the field, cut payroll, and drive fans off, thus costing himself way more than two million dollars?

Not what I'm saying. JR has a long track record with the Sox/Bulls. He spends when there is a chance to win and while the business has a chance to make money. The board I think is under-weighting the liklihood that Ozzie returns for a couple reasons. Again, an opinion. The team is going to stink for years to come and is entering a rebuilding process. We are aging, have limited prospects and two very expensive, bad contracts and a pitching staff that is in decline. JR would rather re-sign Ozzie than pay-up to bring in a new, probably more expensive, manager to oversee the rebuilding process when he can bring back Ozzie, who regardless of many of our views, at least draws media attention and has some fan appeal while the team stinks for a period of time.

[witesoxfan]

Not what I'm saying. JR has a long track record with the Sox/Bulls. He spends when there is a chance to win and while the business has a chance to make money. The board I think is under-weighting the liklihood that Ozzie returns for a couple reasons. Again, an opinion. The team is going to stink for years to come and is entering a rebuilding process. We are aging, have limited prospects and two very expensive, bad contracts and a pitching staff that is in decline. JR would rather re-sign Ozzie than pay-up to bring in a new, probably more expensive, manager to oversee the rebuilding process when he can bring back Ozzie, who regardless of many of our views, at least draws media attention and has some fan appeal while the team stinks for a period of time.

 

In nomenclature, "when the product is good: invest, invest, invest; when the product is bad: save, save save."

 

I bet you do well on the stock market.

[Quin]

In nomenclature, "when the product is good: invest, invest, invest; when the product is bad: save, save save."

 

I bet you do well on the stock market.

 

 

Jay Williams is the ultimate counter point to JR's "Greed"