Ozzie Guillen Released from Contract

[T R U]

Greg-

 

I want you to consider something. You seem like a very loyal guy. Loyal to players, coaches and managers that had a lot of meaning to the organization. Even well after their prime, you defend them. There is something good about that.

 

But let me ask you this. Let's say you are in Jerry Reinsdorff's shoes. He too is a very loyal guy (which alone should tell you something here). The organization has had multiple disappointing years in a row, despite your spending of a lot of money. You've got two people under him, that over the past month, have done this:

 

Person #1 offered to step down to a lower role due to the failures of the team.

 

Person #2 asked repeatedly for a raise and a long term contract, despite those same failures.

 

So, if loyalty is your game... which of those two do you keep? Because it seems to me that you are backing the wrong horse here, based on your own admitted tendencies.

 

Even though person #1 has been a failure at his job since the end of the 2005 season we will give him a pass for being such a nice guy and offering to do that..

[MEANS]

really? You can say that about both numbers.

[T R U]

really? You can say that about both numbers.

 

Of course you can, I wasn't making a pro Ozzie argument.. I was just saying that comparing the two is pointless as they both have failed and yet people try to act like KW playing the nice guy he deserves to stick around making decisions for this club.. Which he most certainly shouldn't be..

[StrangeSox]

Of course you can, I wasn't making a pro Ozzie argument.. I was just saying that comparing the two is pointless as they both have failed and yet people try to act like KW playing the nice guy he deserves to stick around making decisions for this club.. Which he most certainly shouldn't be..

 

Ozzie supporters must have some sort of built-in filter on SoxTalk that automatically removes the thousands of anti-KW posts and threads

[knightni]

KW gets two years to prove that the last 4 years were Ozzie's fault and not his.

 

If he fails, then he'll be gone too.

[T R U]

KW gets two years to prove that the last 4 years were Ozzie's fault and not his.

 

If he fails, then he'll be gone too.

 

How is that even possible? They are all KW's players.. Ozzie didnt do anything to make Adam Dunn flop, Jake Peavy fall apart, and Rios to not give a s***.. there was nothing that could be done about that..

 

Yes, who saw it coming.. I know.. However, they were still moves that didnt work out at all.. I dont think I need to bring up Dan Hudson.. KW should have been relieved of his Gm duties just as much as Ozzie should have been relieved of his manager duties.. I dont see what changes with this team now..

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I read something today comparing Ozzie to Ditka, and it was eerily similar. They also said they wouldn't be surprised if Ozzie's tenure in Miami goes a lot like Ditka's in New Orleans.

 

What's also peculiar is the Marlins obviously tampered. The fact that the Sox don't call them out on this just shows how much they really care Ozzie is gone.

 

Also read where Ozzie's contract is 4 years $10 million. Not bad, but not the $4 million a year many reported. Still its a $700k raise from 2011. If I got a $700k raise, I'd be pretty happy about it.

Ditka wanted to stay with the Bears, and even though McCaskey wanted to fire him for years (since '84 actually), Ditka never publicly said anything against McCaskey either himself or through a proxy.

 

JR wanted Ozzie to stay but Ozzie quit on the organization. He said today he and his family discussed doing this for years.

[Dick Allen]

Ditka wanted to stay with the Bears, and even though McCaskey wanted to fire him for years (since '84 actually), Ditka never publicly said anything against McCaskey either himself or through a proxy.

 

JR wanted Ozzie to stay but Ozzie quit on the organization. He said today he and his family discussed doing this for years.

There obviously was a difference in their departures, but everything else was almost exactly the same. As far as what Ozzie says, he's like the weather in Chicago. Wait 10 minutes and you'll get a different story.

[Marty34]

How is that even possible? They are all KW's players.. Ozzie didnt do anything to make Adam Dunn flop, Jake Peavy fall apart, and Rios to not give a s***.. there was nothing that could be done about that..

 

Yes, who saw it coming.. I know.. However, they were still moves that didnt work out at all.. I dont think I need to bring up Dan Hudson.. KW should have been relieved of his Gm duties just as much as Ozzie should have been relieved of his manager duties.. I dont see what changes with this team now..

 

100% true. (Careful dissenting opinions aren't welcome here.)

 

[iamshack]

How is that even possible? They are all KW's players.. Ozzie didnt do anything to make Adam Dunn flop, Jake Peavy fall apart, and Rios to not give a s***.. there was nothing that could be done about that..

 

Yes, who saw it coming.. I know.. However, they were still moves that didnt work out at all.. I dont think I need to bring up Dan Hudson.. KW should have been relieved of his Gm duties just as much as Ozzie should have been relieved of his manager duties.. I dont see what changes with this team now..

You're conveniently bypassing the fact that neither of them would have been let go had they both been willing to continue to work together in their current roles and under their current contracts.

 

This is not a case of one being fired; this is a case of one refusing to honor his contract and another being perfectly happy to honor his.

[Milkman delivers]

How is that even possible? They are all KW's players.. Ozzie didnt do anything to make Adam Dunn flop, Jake Peavy fall apart, and Rios to not give a s***.. there was nothing that could be done about that..

 

Yes, who saw it coming.. I know.. However, they were still moves that didnt work out at all.. I dont think I need to bring up Dan Hudson.. KW should have been relieved of his Gm duties just as much as Ozzie should have been relieved of his manager duties.. I dont see what changes with this team now..

 

Um, part of Ozzie's job is to get his players to f***ing care. I can buy the other stuff, but Rios is definitely, at least in part, on Ozzie.

[NorthSideSox72]

Of course you can, I wasn't making a pro Ozzie argument.. I was just saying that comparing the two is pointless as they both have failed and yet people try to act like KW playing the nice guy he deserves to stick around making decisions for this club.. Which he most certainly shouldn't be..

um... I think you missed the point of the post.

 

[T R U]

um... I think you missed the point of the post.

 

No, I understand what you were doing with Greg there this is just a different frustrastion with me that KW is still going to be the GM of this team, which I just dont understand..

 

As far as the Rios argument goes, how much someone cares about something isnt going to be decided by someone else.. you either have the desire to be great and are willing to work for it, or you dont.. I could hang out with Bobby Flay for the next year, hes not going to make me give a s*** about cooking..

[iamshack]

No, I understand what you were doing with Greg there this is just a different frustrastion with me that KW is still going to be the GM of this team, which I just dont understand..

 

As far as the Rios argument goes, how much someone cares about something isnt going to be decided by someone else.. you either have the desire to be great and are willing to work for it, or you dont.. I could hang out with Bobby Flay for the next year, hes not going to make me give a s*** about cooking..

I'm not saying motivating Rios is all on Ozzie, because it's not...but come on...to say that motivating your team is not part of a manager's job is just making excuses. I understand these guys are grown men, and I understand they are professionals making millions of dollars, but there are certain leaders, whether they are baseball managers or football coaches or supervisors in a fast food restaurant, that inspire their employees to give a little more. Ozzie certainly never appeared to be someone with this gift, regardless of how well-liked he might have been by his players.

 

As for Kenny and his willingness to step down, I tend to agree with what I think you are trying to point out in that just because Kenny may understand how to manipulate his boss a bit better than Ozzie, that does not excuse his culpability here. But the difference is Kenny was willing to continue trying here while Ozzie was not. Maybe it had something to do with Ozzie being wanted elsewhere and that not being the case with Kenny, but I suppose we will never know for sure.

[fathom]

Sox wanted Logan Morrison, but Marlins were just going to hire Bobby V then

 

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/fish_bytes/...or-guillen.html

[T R U]

I'm not saying motivating Rios is all on Ozzie, because it's not...but come on...to say that motivating your team is not part of a manager's job is just making excuses. I understand these guys are grown men, and I understand they are professionals making millions of dollars, but there are certain leaders, whether they are baseball managers or football coaches or supervisors in a fast food restaurant, that inspire their employees to give a little more. Ozzie certainly never appeared to be someone with this gift, regardless of how well-liked he might have been by his players.

 

As for Kenny and his willingness to step down, I tend to agree with what I think you are trying to point out in that just because Kenny may understand how to manipulate his boss a bit better than Ozzie, that does not excuse his culpability here. But the difference is Kenny was willing to continue trying here while Ozzie was not. Maybe it had something to do with Ozzie being wanted elsewhere and that not being the case with Kenny, but I suppose we will never know for sure.

 

im not saying its not his job, im just saying that because he cant make Rios care about baseball hes not to fault.. there are just some people who cant be reached

[iamshack]

Sox wanted Logan Morrison, but Marlins were just going to hire Bobby V then

 

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/fish_bytes/...or-guillen.html

Should have called their bluff. Then if they did hire Valentine, fired Ozzie later that same day.

 

Would have cost them a few million, but it might have been worth it

[iamshack]

im not saying its not his job, im just saying that because he cant make Rios care about baseball hes not to fault.. there are just some people who cant be reached

I disagree that it is not his fault. It might not be a fireable offense, but it's certainly proof of another arrow missing from Ozzie's quiver.

 

Eventually you look around and realize there are other guys out there with a whole lot more to offer than the guy you currently employ.

[T R U]

I disagree that it is not his fault. It might not be a fireable offense, but it's certainly proof of another arrow missing from Ozzie's quiver.

 

Eventually you look around and realize there are other guys out there with a whole lot more to offer than the guy you currently employ.

 

So basically you think that Rios could be made to care by someone else? Because I just dont think that hes that type of person.. regardless, I do think that it was Ozzies time to go and I am not trying to defend him..

[iamshack]

So basically you think that Rios could be made to care by someone else? Because I just dont think that hes that type of person.. regardless, I do think that it was Ozzies time to go and I am not trying to defend him..

It's not just Rios...it's the general malaise of the team over the course of the last several August/Septembers. We never seemed like a team that had any kind of killer instinct or win or die trying attitude (despite our marketing department's heavy use of the phrase).

 

 

[T R U]

It's not just Rios...it's the general malaise of the team over the course of the last several August/Septembers. We never seemed like a team that had any kind of killer instinct or win or die trying attitude (despite our marketing department's heavy use of the phrase).

 

that has just as much to do with the type of players that are on this team, like Konerko.. hes in a leadership position on this team and he just has an easy going attitude like much of what weve seen.. its too laid back, which is a big problem with our late season failures

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Should have called their bluff. Then if they did hire Valentine, fired Ozzie later that same day.

 

Would have cost them a few million, but it might have been worth it

.....And then they should have sued the Marlins for tampering and got them to pay off Ozzie's final year. I'm sure they could have provided witnesses/proof that they were tampering and claimed they had to fire Ozzie because their tampering poisoned the relationship between Ozzie and the White Sox organization.

[GoodAsGould]

.....And then they should have sued the Marlins for tampering and got them to pay off Ozzie's final year. I'm sure they could have provided witnesses/proof that they were tampering and claimed they had to fire Ozzie because their tampering poisoned the relationship between Ozzie and the White Sox organization.

 

So you wanted the wsox to commit blackmail to get Logan Morrison?

[Milkman delivers]

So you wanted the wsox to commit blackmail to get Logan Morrison?

 

I'd be down with that.

[greg775]

Greg, serious question, what would it take for you to stop supporting Ozzie Guillen? Like, what would he have to say and/or do for you to stop caring about him?

 

 

Greg-

 

I want you to consider something. You seem like a very loyal guy. Loyal to players, coaches and managers that had a lot of meaning to the organization. Even well after their prime, you defend them. There is something good about that.

 

But let me ask you this. Let's say you are in Jerry Reinsdorff's shoes. He too is a very loyal guy (which alone should tell you something here). The organization has had multiple disappointing years in a row, despite your spending of a lot of money. You've got two people under him, that over the past month, have done this:

 

Person #1 offered to step down to a lower role due to the failures of the team.

 

Person #2 asked repeatedly for a raise and a long term contract, despite those same failures.

 

So, if loyalty is your game... which of those two do you keep? Because it seems to me that you are backing the wrong horse here, based on your own admitted tendencies.

 

1.) Good question. The problem is most of the stuff he says doesn't ever bother me because I think he is like a comedian, he puts on a show for the media. That money thing to me was like a stand up comedy act.

 

I swear, whenever I listen to interviews, like 17 full minutes on mlb.com I hear a gracious Ozzie. What would he have to say? Well, it'd have to be in a setting where I believe he means what he says instead of is putting on a comedy act. I guess if he said in a 1-1 interview with ESPN that he hates all his players including Mark and Konerko and thinks all Chicago fans are full of s*** I guess I would start to hate him.

 

2.) OK I am in Jerry's shoes. Fair question.

I think I stated in a few other threads weeks ago that if Ozzie got canned even he would think he deserved to be canned. And in one interview I saw he said indeed he didn't deserve to be here next year. He said, 'I didn't earn it," or something like that.

But to answer your question ... If I am in Jerry's shoes, because I told the two of them they had to get along, they had to behave, they had to work together ... and because the two did not work together, I would replace both of them. They did not make it work. They blew it. And deep down they would know they both deserved to be fired.

Now you imply that it would be easy for Jerry to keep Kenny because he offered to step down and Ozzie kept asking for more years and a raise.

I might argue that he did it through the media and was "Ozzie being Ozzie."

If in a 1-1 meeting with me, Jerry, Ozzie was that belligerent and/or cocky about getting a raise and more years, then yes I would fire him. But his media persona is quite different I am assuming than when he meets with Jerry.

 

The bottom line is I know Ozzie deserved to get fired. But I think KW did too because of the fact the two of them COULD NOT AND WOULD NOT work together.

I think both should be out the door.

 

My desire to keep Ozzie as you all know stems from the fact I think he learned on the job here and is still young and will have a Hall of Fame career as a manager. I hate the fact he learned on the job here and now will be managing elsewhere. He got one title here, I think he'd have gotten more.

 

Did he deserve to get fired? Yes. This year's April/May was inexcusable (even with Dunn n Rios) but KW also should be gone.

 

If you have any other specific questions I will answer them as well.

Edited September 29, 2011 by greg775