Ozzie Guillen Released from Contract

[kitekrazy]

Um, part of Ozzie's job is to get his players to f***ing care. I can buy the other stuff, but Rios is definitely, at least in part, on Ozzie.

 

I imagine it's pretty hard to motivate a player in sport that has guaranteed contracts. At least the Chicago media and fan base started taking it much more serious.

Funny how this organization started regressing was when trading Rowand. Who would've thought that would be an indirect consequence.

 

[greg775]

I have another question for you guys.

 

Seriously, Atlanta and Boston did not make the playoffs after looking like they were locks.

They blew it.

Their fans bases must be furious, FURIOUS.

 

So should their managers be fired??? Answer this please.

Should Boston and Atlanta fire their managers. Those were EPIC failures in not making the playoffs.

 

My point so many fan bases want to fire their managers.

I think Ozzie is a good manager.

[Milkman delivers]

1.) Good question. The problem is most of the stuff he says doesn't ever bother me because I think he is like a comedian, he puts on a show for the media. That money thing to me was like a stand up comedy act.

 

I swear, whenever I listen to interviews, like 17 full minutes on mlb.com I hear a gracious Ozzie. What would he have to say? Well, it'd have to be in a setting where I believe he means what he says instead of is putting on a comedy act. I guess if he said in a 1-1 interview with ESPN that he hates all his players including Mark and Konerko and thinks all Chicago fans are full of s*** I guess I would start to hate him.

 

2.) OK I am in Jerry's shoes. Fair question.

I think I stated in a few other threads weeks ago that if Ozzie got canned even he would think he deserved to be canned. And in one interview I saw he said indeed he didn't deserve to be here next year. He said, 'I didn't earn it," or something like that.

But to answer your question ... If I am in Jerry's shoes, because I told the two of them they had to get along, they had to behave, they had to work together ... and because the two did not work together, I would replace both of them. They did not make it work. They blew it. And deep down they would know they both deserved to be fired.

Now you imply that it would be easy for Jerry to keep Kenny because he offered to step down and Ozzie kept asking for more years and a raise.

I might argue that he did it through the media and was "Ozzie being Ozzie."

If in a 1-1 meeting with me, Jerry, Ozzie was that belligerent and/or cocky about getting a raise and more years, then yes I would fire him. But his media persona is quite different I am assuming than when he meets with Jerry.

 

The bottom line is I know Ozzie deserved to get fired. But I think KW did too because of the fact the two of them COULD NOT AND WOULD NOT work together.

I think both should be out the door.

 

My desire to keep Ozzie as you all know stems from the fact I think he learned on the job here and is still young and will have a Hall of Fame career as a manager. I hate the fact he learned on the job here and now will be managing elsewhere. He got one title here, I think he'd have gotten more.

 

Did he deserve to get fired? Yes. This year's April/May was inexcusable (even with Dunn n Rios) but KW also should be gone.

 

If you have any other specific questions I will answer them as well.

 

I can respect that.

 

I have another question for you guys.

 

Seriously, Atlanta and Boston did not make the playoffs after looking like they were locks.

They blew it.

Their fans bases must be furious, FURIOUS.

 

So should their managers be fired??? Answer this please.

Should Boston and Atlanta fire their managers. Those were EPIC failures in not making the playoffs.

 

My point so many fan bases want to fire their managers.

I think Ozzie is a good manager.

 

With the Red Sox, I think it would be OK to fire Francona. It's been 4 years since their last title, they collapsed worse than any team has in the final month of the season, and they have an incredibly high payroll. The Braves probably shouldn't fire Gonzalez because this is his first season and they had a lot of young guys, some of whom faltered down the stretch due a lot to their youth.

[Quin]

I have another question for you guys.

 

Seriously, Atlanta and Boston did not make the playoffs after looking like they were locks.

They blew it.

Their fans bases must be furious, FURIOUS.

 

So should their managers be fired??? Answer this please.

Should Boston and Atlanta fire their managers. Those were EPIC failures in not making the playoffs.

 

My point so many fan bases want to fire their managers.

I think Ozzie is a good manager.

 

Francona will be fired.

 

Gonzalez was signed to recently in Florida and that team is on the verge of being a power again.

 

Also, I would have ate the $2M and left Ozzie with no job opening. No one other than the Marlins would hire his ass.

[Quin]

Also, I doubt Francona said "f*** 2004 or 2007, I'm in it for the money." Or Gonzalez probably said "f*** winning, I want more money? Am I gonna die poor in Atlanta."

 

Had Ozzie left graciously, just said things weren't working out, I'd still respect him and feel a bit sad.

 

But now?

 

f*** him. He said "f*** my ring. I don't wear my f***ing ring."

 

It makes me think 2005 was about a pay raise to him instead.

[max power]

I agree with Milkman.

 

Edit: And Quinarvy.

Edited September 29, 2011 by MAX

[chw42]

I can respect that.

 

 

 

With the Red Sox, I think it would be OK to fire Francona. It's been 4 years since their last title, they collapsed worse than any team has in the final month of the season, and they have an incredibly high payroll. The Braves probably shouldn't fire Gonzalez because this is his first season and they had a lot of young guys, some of whom faltered down the stretch due a lot to their youth.

 

Gonzalez's overuse of O'Flaherty, Venters and, Kimbrel really bit him in the ass late in the season.

[kitekrazy]

I have another question for you guys.

 

Seriously, Atlanta and Boston did not make the playoffs after looking like they were locks.

They blew it.

Their fans bases must be furious, FURIOUS.

 

So should their managers be fired??? Answer this please.

Should Boston and Atlanta fire their managers. Those were EPIC failures in not making the playoffs.

 

My point so many fan bases want to fire their managers.

I think Ozzie is a good manager.

 

Of course, with Boston. Atlanta? I don't know. Did they have a good season last year.

If the Cards blew it, I could imagine a fan base hoping La Russa goes to Chicago.

No manager ever misses the Yankees once they leave.

Ozzie will be a much better manager in the NL.

 

 

[iamshack]

1.) Good question. The problem is most of the stuff he says doesn't ever bother me because I think he is like a comedian, he puts on a show for the media. That money thing to me was like a stand up comedy act.

 

I swear, whenever I listen to interviews, like 17 full minutes on mlb.com I hear a gracious Ozzie. What would he have to say? Well, it'd have to be in a setting where I believe he means what he says instead of is putting on a comedy act. I guess if he said in a 1-1 interview with ESPN that he hates all his players including Mark and Konerko and thinks all Chicago fans are full of s*** I guess I would start to hate him.

 

2.) OK I am in Jerry's shoes. Fair question.

I think I stated in a few other threads weeks ago that if Ozzie got canned even he would think he deserved to be canned. And in one interview I saw he said indeed he didn't deserve to be here next year. He said, 'I didn't earn it," or something like that.

But to answer your question ... If I am in Jerry's shoes, because I told the two of them they had to get along, they had to behave, they had to work together ... and because the two did not work together, I would replace both of them. They did not make it work. They blew it. And deep down they would know they both deserved to be fired.

Now you imply that it would be easy for Jerry to keep Kenny because he offered to step down and Ozzie kept asking for more years and a raise.

I might argue that he did it through the media and was "Ozzie being Ozzie."

If in a 1-1 meeting with me, Jerry, Ozzie was that belligerent and/or cocky about getting a raise and more years, then yes I would fire him. But his media persona is quite different I am assuming than when he meets with Jerry.

 

The bottom line is I know Ozzie deserved to get fired. But I think KW did too because of the fact the two of them COULD NOT AND WOULD NOT work together.

I think both should be out the door.

 

My desire to keep Ozzie as you all know stems from the fact I think he learned on the job here and is still young and will have a Hall of Fame career as a manager. I hate the fact he learned on the job here and now will be managing elsewhere. He got one title here, I think he'd have gotten more.

 

Did he deserve to get fired? Yes. This year's April/May was inexcusable (even with Dunn n Rios) but KW also should be gone.

 

If you have any other specific questions I will answer them as well.

So let me get this straight...if you are tasked to work with some complete asshat at work, and you cannot, that means that you should be fired along with the asshat? What the hell kind of sense does that make?

[kitekrazy]

I read something today comparing Ozzie to Ditka, and it was eerily similar. They also said they wouldn't be surprised if Ozzie's tenure in Miami goes a lot like Ditka's in New Orleans.

 

What's also peculiar is the Marlins obviously tampered. The fact that the Sox don't call them out on this just shows how much they really care Ozzie is gone.

 

Also read where Ozzie's contract is 4 years $10 million. Not bad, but not the $4 million a year many reported. Still its a $700k raise from 2011. If I got a $700k raise, I'd be pretty happy about it.

 

I doubt the Marlins tampered. They talked to the Sox previously about getting Ozzie last season.

 

[greg775]

If Francona gets fired, we'd be fools to not hire him.

Cmon Sox. Wait a few weeks if Francona is available!

[greg775]

So let me get this straight...if you are tasked to work with some complete asshat at work, and you cannot, that means that you should be fired along with the asshat? What the hell kind of sense does that make?

 

It makes a lot of sense.

KW hired that asshat. He did. Or Jerry did. Whatever. Kenny technically hired Ozzie and said publicly he was his "boss."

Jerry told the two late last season or after last season to do better and make it work.

It takes two to not tango. KW is just as much to blame of the fallout with Ozzie as Ozzie.

You are totally taking KW's side on that??

Edited September 29, 2011 by greg775

[Quin]

It makes a lot of sense.

KW hired that asshat. He did. Or Jerry did. Whatever. Kenny technically hired Ozzie and said publicly he was his "boss."

Jerry told the two late last season or after last season to do better and make it work.

It takes two to not tango. KW is just as much to blame of the fallout with Ozzie as Ozzie.

You are totally taking KW's side on that??

 

No...I'm pretty sure if someone really, really doesn't want to dance, they won't.

[kitekrazy]

Francona will be fired.

 

Gonzalez was signed to recently in Florida and that team is on the verge of being a power again.

 

Also, I would have ate the $2M and left Ozzie with no job opening. No one other than the Marlins would hire his ass.

 

I wouldn't have been surprised of they let Ozzie finish contract but with different coaches. If they would have fired Ozzie, Marlins hired him the Sox aren't out $2M.

 

[iamshack]

It makes a lot of sense.

KW hired that asshat. He did. Or Jerry did. Whatever. Kenny technically hired Ozzie and said publicly he was his "boss."

Jerry told the two late last season or after last season to do better and make it work.

It takes two to not tango. KW is just as much to blame of the fallout with Ozzie as Ozzie.

You are totally taking KW's side on that??

So basically, if I don't like my boss, and I know I am on my way out the door soon, I can just create a situation which is unworkable or impossible for my boss or coworker to coexist in and thereby get him fired?

 

Assanine.

[caulfield12]

So basically, if I don't like my boss, and I know I am on my way out the door soon, I can just create a situation which is unworkable or impossible for my boss or coworker to coexist in and thereby get him fired?

 

Assanine.

 

 

Well, not exactly.

 

Let's think of KW as a regional sales director and Ozzie as his top salesman and marketing "face of the company."

 

If 10 other things go wrong with the sales operation that have absolutely nothing to do with the top salesman, then the leader has to take responsibility.

 

Of course, some will argue KW and Ozzie were "equal" or KW never had the authority...which isn't without precedent, if you look at the Yankees under Steinbrenner or the Loria situation with managers down in FLA.

 

I don't think ANYONE would say (and Greg hasn't) that Ozzie doesn't bear some degree of fault or responsiblity. The irritation might simply be that KW "handled things better" or "brown-nosed" or "kissed butt" and just because he was the lesser of two evils, that in and of itself wasn't a reason for him to be retained as well.

 

KW did publicly try to blame Ozzie over the Thome decision. That type of discussion should have stayed in-house. I'm never going to argue that Guillen hasn't done MORE awful/egregious things that in and of themselves would be fireable offenses.

 

The only problem I have is this whole b.s. notion of "rebuilding" and Williams actually being able to execute this vision when it goes against everything he's been taught and trained to do philosophically here in Chicago, which is to give his team a "good chance" at being competitive each and every year.

 

The whole complacency behind giving him ANOTHER 2-3 years to clean up this mess, I don't think he deserves so much rope to hang himself, but that's just me.

 

But Ozzie is more like Steve Alford than anyone I can think of, he's all about himself, his brand, and what's best for him. And I worry that the fate of the White Sox the next 3-5 years won't be very different from what's transpired with my former university's basketball program. Irrelevant. Occasional bright glimpses of the future and inspirational play, but nothing sustained and not even a glimmer of hope of making it to the post-season. They might be "doing things the right way" but that doesn't sell tickets, either. And they quickly got rid of an NCAA Coach of the Year in Todd Lickliter, he barely made it through 3 years before things got MUCH worse than they were under Alford, because apathy REALLY set in, people stopped caring and tuned out completely. That's what Greg and some of the others like Victory and Marty will happen with Ozzie gone. Unfortunately, it's a risk JR felt he had to take.

Edited September 29, 2011 by caulfield12

[T R U]

Also, I doubt Francona said "f*** 2004 or 2007, I'm in it for the money." Or Gonzalez probably said "f*** winning, I want more money? Am I gonna die poor in Atlanta."

 

Had Ozzie left graciously, just said things weren't working out, I'd still respect him and feel a bit sad.

 

But now?

 

f*** him. He said "f*** my ring. I don't wear my f***ing ring."

 

It makes me think 2005 was about a pay raise to him instead.

 

Honestly, I think Ozzie just made all that bulls*** up on the spot to make it look like he wasn't getting fired (Which he would have anyways had he not asked to be released) but he was leaving because he wanted to.. It was pretty evident someone was leaving, and it wasn't going to be KW.. To me it just seemed like Ozzie wanted to make it look like he just decided he wanted out instead of getting canned..

[iamshack]

Well, not exactly.

 

Let's think of KW as a regional sales director and Ozzie as his top salesman and marketing "face of the company."

 

If 10 other things go wrong with the sales operation that have absolutely nothing to do with the top salesman, then the leader has to take responsibility.

 

Of course, some will argue KW and Ozzie were "equal" or KW never had the authority...which isn't without precedent, if you look at the Yankees under Steinbrenner or the Loria situation with managers down in FLA.

 

I don't think ANYONE would say (and Greg hasn't) that Ozzie doesn't bear some degree of fault or responsiblity. The irritation might simply be that KW "handled things better" or "brown-nosed" or "kissed butt" and just because he was the lesser of two evils, that in and of itself wasn't a reason for him to be retained as well.

 

KW did publicly try to blame Ozzie over the Thome decision. That type of discussion should have stayed in-house. I'm never going to argue that Guillen hasn't done MORE awful/egregious things that in and of themselves would be fireable offenses.

 

The only problem I have is this whole b.s. notion of "rebuilding" and Williams actually being able to execute this vision when it goes against everything he's been taught and trained to do philosophically here in Chicago, which is to give his team a "good chance" at being competitive each and every year.

 

The whole complacency behind giving him ANOTHER 2-3 years to clean up this mess, I don't think he deserves so much rope to hang himself, but that's just me.

 

But Ozzie is more like Steve Alford than anyone I can think of, he's all about himself, his brand, and what's best for him. And I worry that the fate of the White Sox the next 3-5 years won't be very different from what's transpired with my former university's basketball program. Irrelevant. Occasional bright glimpses of the future and inspirational play, but nothing sustained and not even a glimmer of hope of making it to the post-season. They might be "doing things the right way" but that doesn't sell tickets, either. And they quickly got rid of an NCAA Coach of the Year in Todd Lickliter, he barely made it through 3 years before things got MUCH worse than they were under Alford, because apathy REALLY set in, people stopped caring and tuned out completely. That's what Greg and some of the others like Victory and Marty will happen with Ozzie gone. Unfortunately, it's a risk JR felt he had to take.

I don't see how you can claim that Kenny isn't taking any responsibility here.

 

Greg is arguing that Kenny should be fired on the basis of his inability to have a productive relationship with Ozzie Guillen.

 

One could argue a lot of reasons that Kenny should be fired. I'm not sure if I could think of a worse one than his inability to work well with Ozzie Guillen the last few seasons.

[iamshack]

Honestly, I think Ozzie just made all that bulls*** up on the spot to make it look like he wasn't getting fired (Which he would have anyways had he not asked to be released) but he was leaving because he wanted to.. It was pretty evident someone was leaving, and it wasn't going to be KW.. To me it just seemed like Ozzie wanted to make it look like he just decided he wanted out instead of getting canned..

I'm not sure this is the case, actually.

[T R U]

I'm not sure this is the case, actually.

 

So you think that Ozzie really just wanted more money, and if not for that KW and Ozzie would both have returned for next season?

 

It feels like they already had that deal with the Marlins in place before this all came about, from everything that I can see it looks like Ozzie wasn't going to be coming back next season either way..

[T R U]

Also, why do this with two games left in the season? To me, it reeks of "Oh, you don't want me here? Then im taking my ball and going home"

[iamshack]

Also, why do this with two games left in the season? To me, it reeks of "Oh, you don't want me here? Then im taking my ball and going home"

Have you not been reading the headlines?

 

Ozzie has been saying for weeks now that he wanted to have his contract situation resolved before he took his vacation with his wife immediately following the season. He's been lobbying for an extension for a month now.

 

It's pretty clear that he wanted more money, and determined he was going to try and get it from Jerry first, and then if Jerry wouldn't pony up, he would plead for his release so that he could get it from the Marlins.

 

Had he just shut his mouth, I think he would have been back, at least to start next year, under the terms of his current contract. I'm not sure how long of a leash he would have had, but I truly don't believe Jerry had any desire to fire Ozzie.

[T R U]

Have you not been reading the headlines?

 

Ozzie has been saying for weeks now that he wanted to have his contract situation resolved before he took his vacation with his wife immediately following the season. He's been lobbying for an extension for a month now.

 

It's pretty clear that he wanted more money, and determined he was going to try and get it from Jerry first, and then if Jerry wouldn't pony up, he would plead for his release so that he could get it from the Marlins.

 

Had he just shut his mouth, I think he would have been back, at least to start next year, under the terms of his current contract. I'm not sure how long of a leash he would have had, but I truly don't believe Jerry had any desire to fire Ozzie.

 

Yeah I know he has been pushing for that, but I think that was more about wanting to be wanted here than just about getting more money.. He wanted to have security of being manager here for the foreseeable future.. He didn't need to plead for anything as the Marlins job was waiting for him regardless.. Once he knew that he was no longer welcome here, he pretty much left on the spot..

 

He got a 4 year deal in the $12 million dollar range, that cant be substantially better than what he was already making here..

[greg775]

Yeah I know he has been pushing for that, but I think that was more about wanting to be wanted here than just about getting more money.. He wanted to have security of being manager here for the foreseeable future.. He didn't need to plead for anything as the Marlins job was waiting for him regardless.. Once he knew that he was no longer welcome here, he pretty much left on the spot..

 

He got a 4 year deal in the $12 million dollar range, that cant be substantially better than what he was already making here..

 

A four year deal? I was mocked for suggesting he'd get one.

That's the last time I'll mention it, but since nobody congratulated me so I had to take credit myself since a lot of people on here think I am a moron who does not know baseball at all.

 

[iamshack]

Yeah I know he has been pushing for that, but I think that was more about wanting to be wanted here than just about getting more money.. He wanted to have security of being manager here for the foreseeable future.. He didn't need to plead for anything as the Marlins job was waiting for him regardless.. Once he knew that he was no longer welcome here, he pretty much left on the spot..

 

He got a 4 year deal in the $12 million dollar range, that cant be substantially better than what he was already making here..

I don't think it's fair to equate not getting an extension after this season to not being welcome here.

 

Again, not getting offered an extension after this season and being fired are two very different things.