This article will make Greg smile....

[caulfield12]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...urn=mlb-wp21070

[chw42]

Did he just compare MJ and Guillen? WTF?

[greg775]

Guillen wanted more money to serve as the scapegoat for so many of the ill-advised and expensive plans hatched by his friend-turned-adversary GM Kenny Williams. Owner Jerry Reinsdorf was unwilling to meet those demands and — like he did with Michael Jordan in the '90s — sided with the unpopular front office man.

 

Reinsdorf must have his reasons for declaring Williams the winner of this war. They're just hard to understand, especially after he's set piles of Reinsdorf's money and the organization's cheap talent aflame by going after busts like Jake Peavy(notes), Alex Rios(notes), Mark Teahan, Adam Dunn(notes) and one very expensive month of Manny Ramirez(notes). The easiest explanation is that Williams, like Jerry Krause once was with the Bulls, is the company man that Guillen's (or Jordan's) ego could never allow himself to be. That has probably saved his job, even though the "All-In" debacle requires an organizational restart if you're really looking to hold people accountable.

 

I especially like that part.

 

Thanks for posting this. I may have missed it. I loved it. I now feel vindicated as somebody wrote my true feelings on the matter.

I still can't believe the White Sox were dumb enough to let Guillen go. But the writer pointed out great reasons why KW won the war over Ozzie.

Great great column.

[max power]

Yeah, greg might like that pile of s***.

 

This might be how the nation sees things. I don't think its how white sox fans see things. I, for one, identify with the team itself, not the former manager. Not once did I think of this team as ozzie's team, that he was that important. Maybe if you live outside of Chicago you have some other perspective in which this article makes sense.

Edited September 28, 2011 by MAX

[Quin]

Did he just compare MJ and Guillen? WTF?

 

[jenksycat]

ridiculous

 

If you identify with a baseball team because of the manager you should just stop watching all together.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'm actually kind of impressed. Click on "'Duk" the author and you'll see that all this person does is blog about baseball all day and all night. He's really working for his money, gotta respect that.

 

When the total amount of new content is deemed to be of greater value than the content itself, this is exactly what you get.

 

Now time to go back to piling on Kenny for not knowing Dunn & Peavy would be busts when it was so painfully obvious to all astute fans from the very get-go, and also for not selling high on Rios after last season when he could have dumped the whole contract and picked up a piece or two as well.

[Wanne]

Maybe from a marketing perspective (nationally anyways)...it's all they've had for a while. I'm still kinda iffy of believing the bs about kenny "offered" to step down. Sounds like political spin to me actually. I still wish Kenny woulda taken a hike as well...

[jenksycat]

I'm actually kind of impressed. Click on "'Duk" the author and you'll see that all this person does is blog about baseball all day and all night. He's really working for his money, gotta respect that.

 

When the total amount of new content is deemed to be of greater value than the content itself, this is exactly what you get.

Now time to go back to piling on Kenny for not knowing Dunn & Peavy would be busts when it was so painfully obvious to all astute fans from the very get-go, and also for not selling high on Rios after last season when he could have dumped the whole contract and picked up a piece or two as well.

 

Sadly this is about 90% of what this board will consist of till April 2012 with the handful of trolls s***ting in every thread

[fathom]

Sadly this is about 90% of what this board will consist of till April 2012 with the handful of trolls s***ting in every thread

 

It's terrible...wish there could be a thread that only contained actual updates.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I especially like that part.

 

Thanks for posting this. I may have missed it. I loved it. I now feel vindicated as somebody wrote my true feelings on the matter.

I still can't believe the White Sox were dumb enough to let Guillen go. But the writer pointed out great reasons why KW won the war over Ozzie.

Great great column.

Kenny didn't win s***. His career fell to its lowest point, he lost power to a manager, he was held back by an owner, and for his three biggest talent & payroll expenditures he got an unreliable 5th starter, a 4th OF, and a donkey.

 

Meanwhile Kenny at least has the ability to correct some of these errors. Ozzie provides nothing at all that benefits this organization anymore. As crazy as it may seem, whatever Ozzie's ideas would have been with regard to improving the team, they almost certainly would have made us worse in 2012 and beyond.

 

There was no power struggle here. It was a long and played out drama where one prima donna off-field ancillary character, who when at his best has minimal influence on the total performance of the team, flaunted his ego at every turn and kept a despondent and obviously neutered executive answering questions no GM should have to answer during the course of a baseball season. JR got sick of it and let Kenny take his belt. Ozzie was asking for a way out and he got it. I hope he takes his three little jerkoffs with him and Cowley too. I'll always love Ozzie for his time here as a player and for his first few years as a manager here, and for helping make baseball relevant here again, but he has nothing positive to offer this organization anymore.

[caulfield12]

Greg,

 

From reading all the threads tonight, if I were you, you should stop trying to defend or justify yourself.

 

Just make an effort to be consistent, don't back down...and don't talk out of both sides of your mouth, waffling back and forth.

 

Notice that Victory, Marty34, Dick Allen (on the Greg Walker thing) never have ceded an inch. We might call the previous two trolls or Joe Cowley or instigators or thread hijackers, but it's apparent they are never going to give up, so you enjoy the intellectual exercise of dealing with them or you completely tune them out, one of the two.

 

The main problem is that in the way you're defending Ozzie, it seems (or is perceived) to many here (my guess) that you're putting your affection/emotions/feelings for Ozzie ahead of the rest of the team or the organization.

 

Think to yourself why you became a White Sox fan in the first place...or why the Royals aren't your favorite team, instead.

 

At some point this offseason, Juan Pierre will no longer be a member of the White Sox. You already lost Bobby Jenks. Life goes on. We will all survive the eventual departures of Buehrle, Konerko and AJ as well. Part of being a fan. Imagine the Cardinals' fans and their reaction to possibly losing Pujols. Will they stop being Cardinals fans? I sincerely doubt it. No one player or manager is greater than the sum of all the individual parts that make up that team and its history.

 

It's okay to be stubborn, obtuse or intransigent in your beliefs and defense of them. Just don't try to appease the people who are criticizing you by giving in and agreeing they might be right or that their opinions have merit (if you actually believe you're right and not just defending someone/something because 95% seem to be against it/you). And look at the situation from all angles. You know that citing Juan Pierre's relatively high batting average as a defense of him won't suffice when there's 10 things he's not doing well...not for $8.5 million.

Edited September 28, 2011 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/28/2428...e-move-for.html

 

A much more objective Guillen piece than anything written by the Chicago media. It nicely summarizes the pros and cons of the decision. It would be really ironic if Ozzie had Pujols/Fielder or some of the biggest names in baseball that have never been possibilities on the SouthSide, at least not in the primes of their careers.

 

However, with Loria's track record, you have to see it proven to actually believe in it happening.

 

 

 

 

Part of another Miami Herald article....the whole firing of Cora by text message apparently is a horse that won't ever be put back in the barn thanks to Cowley

 

Praise from Lowell

 

“I told a bunch of people he’s one of the best coaches I’ve ever played for,” said former Marlins third baseman Mike Lowell, who attended a social event at Sun Life Stadium on the eve of the final game there. “I know everybody says Ozzie likes to talk and all that, but he knows a lot about baseball. He’s won a World Series. I’m curious to see how it plays out.”

 

Said second baseman Omar Infante, who signed a two-year contract extension on Tuesday: “I think that’s what we need. I like him because he’s very aggressive. He talks a lot to the players. We’re a young team, and I think he’ll help us a lot.”

 

Outfielder Logan Morrison said it will still come down to the players.

 

“The players are the ones who win and lose games,” Morrison said.

 

“He’s a name. I don’t think he’s going to be an end-all, save-all. But, then again, I don’t know.”

 

Morrison said Guillen’s candor, though, could be good for the Marlins. Guillen is not shy about criticizing players who aren’t performing.

 

“Some guys need that,” Morrison said. “I think you could see some areas [on the Marlins] where that’s needed.”

 

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/28/2428...l#ixzz1ZDjABF96

Edited September 28, 2011 by caulfield12

[greg775]

Just don't try to appease the people who are criticizing you by giving in and agreeing they might be right or that their opinions have merit (if you actually believe you're right and not just defending someone/something because 95% seem to be against it/you).

 

I didn't think I was giving in. I would think most of my haters would think I haven't budged after presented their "facts, stats" thus their hatred of me grows. You must see me waffling somewhere.

 

I'm really not crazy about Alomar being our new manager. Royals went with an inexperienced catcher once, during a rebuild in Pena, and he was a disaster.

If the Red Sox blow it and their fans are imploding why can't we steal their manager just as the Marlins swooped in on Ozzie? If the Twins hate Gardy, why can't we steal him?

He's experienced as well.

 

People mock me like when I said if Guillen is so s*** why will Florida give him 4 years?

Four years? I was mocked.

And what is it ... four years and this disgrace of a manager is now also one of the highest paid in baseball by a cheap team.

And the Sox let him go? Smart move.

Edited September 28, 2011 by greg775

[caulfield12]

I didn't think I was giving in. I would think most of my haters would think I haven't budged after presented their "facts, stats" thus their hatred of me grows. You must see me waffling somewhere.

 

I'm really not crazy about Alomar being our new manager. Royals went with an inexperienced catcher once, during a rebuild in Pena, and he was a disaster.

If the Red Sox blow it and their fans are imploding why can't we steal their manager just as the Marlins swooped in on Ozzie? If the Twins hate Gardy, why can't we steal him?

He's experienced as well.

 

People mock me like when I said if Guillen is so s*** why will Florida give him 4 years?

Four years? I was mocked.

And what is it ... four years and this disgrace of a manager is now also one of the highest paid in baseball by a cheap team.

And the Sox let him go? Smart move.

 

 

If you remember, you have to give credit to Tony Pena for the first four months of 2003. For nearly a decade, the Royals hadn't had a single winning season, after Brett retired. And from what he learned during that experience (which ended with him leaving in somewhat embarassing fashion), he's still been mentioned as a legit managerial candidate in the last 2-3 offseasons. It's the same thing you've mentioned about Ozzie...that he learned a lot/was trained during his time here, and can used that past EXPERIENCE to be an even better manager in the future. Right?

 

That team was put together like a MacGuyver project....duct tape and baling wire. It was a miracle they stayed in contention so long with their "WE BELIEVE" catchphrase preceding Obama's "Yes, We Can" by 5 years.

 

Florida is REPORTEDLY giving him 3 or 4 years to 1) sell tickets/help market/open up their new stadium, 2) build a bridge to the Hispanic fanbase in South Florida, 3) receive national media attention, 4) put them on the map as a potential destination for premier Free Agents (this didn't really happen in Chicago, only Freddy Garcia can be directly attributed to Ozzie) and 5) work with their young players.

 

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean he was the best manager for the White Sox in 2012 or moving forward.

 

And we're not going to swoop in and pay Francona $4-5 million per year because 1) JR has never done that before, 2) the team will more than likely be in a rebuilding phase and cutting payroll, so the job wouldn't be very attractive to a LaRussa or Francona type.

 

Finally, he WANTED to leave. If you had an employee that was seeking to get out of his contract, once you cross that bridge, there's almost never a going back. The Sox were never going to be able to keep him pacified unless JR fired Williams and allowed him to keep his entire coaching staff intact, including Greg Walker.

Edited September 28, 2011 by caulfield12

[greg775]

Good post caufield.

 

Here's another good column by espn chicago.

Kenny has some rebounding to do. He's been rotten of late.

 

http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/...-kenny-williams

[caulfield12]

Williams also stressed the good things that are going on in the Venezuela operations (except for you know, Guillen leaving) even if he doesn't name the two top prospects that he referred to as "The Franchise -- Sanchez -- and a left-handed pitcher in the Instructional League."

 

He can't brag about the team's status in the talent-rich Dominican Republic. Williams seemed to suggest it's getting tougher to scout there, which is odd.

 

"If you look at our reports, across the industry, there's not as many Type I, Type II Dominican players coming out," Williams said. "It's getting harder [and] harder, for whatever reason."

 

The Rangers signed Dominican outfielder Nomar Mazara to a record $5 million deal this season. Bonuses are high across baseball for Dominican players. Under the Ricketts family, the Cubs are banking on upgrades to their Dominican operations, which has produced Carlos Marmol and Starlin Castro.

 

No one really brings up the Sox's continued failures in the Dominican, but when the White Sox develop a homegrown Latin American star again, let me know.

[caulfield12]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/...ers/cards/87064

 

I'm guessing he's referring to this guy, who converted from a hitter to RHP (20 year old from VALENCIA, VNZ).

Or it has to be Yolmer Carlos Sanchez, a 19 year-old SS from Maracay.

 

 

Who's our LH Venezuelan stud in Instructional League? Anyone know?

[whitesoxfan101]

The guy that wrote the Yahoo article is a Cubs fan. That basically explains it all. I agree with his point about Ozzie (well, 2004-2009 Ozzie) mirroring his constituency. I even agree it'll be weird with another manager. Beyond that though, it's largely nonsense.

 

The thing that amazes me about Ozzie Guillen is how much fans of OTHER teams like him. I'd say almost every baseball fan I know that isn't a White Sox fan loves the guy, and doesn't get why he's gone. Even some casual (dumb) Sox fans are bewildered. But really, to a man, I'd say 95% of the hardcore fans are thankful he's gone. Maybe more. Sadly, almost all of us have similar wishes for Kenny, but here he is.

[whitesoxfan101]

I literally laughed out loud at this line from that piece. The author clearly hasn't followed our team the last two seasons.

 

And taking on Guillen despite the probable headaches that come with him also would indicate that winning is now more important than personal squabbles over relatively meaningless issues.

 

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/28/2428...l#ixzz1ZESM4iES

 

I mean, you seriously could not write a more inaccurate sentence than that if you tried. There have been FAR more personal squabbles (many over relatively meaningless issues) than winning in the last six years.

Edited September 28, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[caulfield12]

I think they must have been referencing the squabbles in South Florida over Hanley Ramirez, Josh Johnson and the workloads of the pitchers, about Girardi and management, Fredi Gonzalez getting canned, etc.

 

It just looks really silly in comparison to what was going on with Guillen and his family and KW at the same time.

 

They did fire two managers who were performing well above (Girardi) or at least "at" expectations (Gonzalez) in the span of just a couple of years.

 

 

 

 

3. You can’t tell it by the way his tenure with the White Sox ended, but Guillen is as close to being a genius as you can find in baseball. He has the ability to be in an animated conversation in one part of a stadium or clubhouse and know everything going on around him -- like the kid who never seems to be paying attention to the teacher but gets A's without studying. He’s that kid. That’s what I’ll miss the most -- how he catches everything. The man is pretty much a mind reader. His instincts are off the charts. He didn’t go onto the field in Houston to celebrate the White Sox clinching the 2005 World Series. He stayed in the dugout, with his coaches, leaving the moment to guys like Bobby Jenks, Juan Uribe, Paul Konerko and Buehrle. It was easy to love that guy.

 

I hope he’s happy in Florida, and that he gets back to another World Series or two in the next decade, with a franchise that could become a destination for Latin American players. But Jeffrey Loria isn’t exactly Reinsdorf when it comes to being loyal to employees. He’s fired a Who’s Who of managers, getting Felipe Alou in Montreal and Jeff Torborg, Joe Girardi and Gonzalez in Florida, never leaving anyone in place for four years. Guillen might change that, but in baseball the only thing guaranteed is your contract, not your job.

 

Phil Rogers is STILL speculating that it will be LaRussa, but that seems a bit far-fetched with what we know so far...

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,3270471.story

 

 

Edited September 28, 2011 by caulfield12

[JohnCangelosi]

3. You can’t tell it by the way his tenure with the White Sox ended, but Guillen is as close to being a genius as you can find in baseball. He has the ability to be in an animated conversation in one part of a stadium or clubhouse and know everything going on around him -- like the kid who never seems to be paying attention to the teacher but gets A's without studying. He’s that kid. That’s what I’ll miss the most -- how he catches everything. The man is pretty much a mind reader.

 

Genius? All I can say is WOW.

[Texsox]

I literally laughed out loud at this line from that piece. The author clearly hasn't followed our team the last two seasons.

 

 

 

I mean, you seriously could not write a more inaccurate sentence than that if you tried. There have been FAR more personal squabbles (many over relatively meaningless issues) than winning in the last six years.

 

They believe Oz gives then the best chance of winning and are willing to tolerate the personal squabbles. It seems pretty accurate to me.

[RockRaines]

Lol, you know when you hang your opinion on a blog written by a guy named Duk that youve made it.

[Milkman delivers]

Morrison said Guillen’s candor, though, could be good for the Marlins. Guillen is not shy about criticizing players who aren’t performing.

 

Unless he's friends with them, that is. If they're a young, likely white, player, he'll criticize the s*** out of 'em.