Who do you want as the new manager?

[greg775]

OK, Francona is likely gone according to this Fox story by Rosenthal that just went up on the Web.

How can the White Sox NOT hire this guy.

This could work out GREAT in the long run.

As much as I LOVE Ozzie, Tito HAS TO BE the man.

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/manager...-red-sox-092911

 

 

Tnis guy has won TWO WS and we don't want him?

Over a couple million bucks?

If we don't hire him this has been a s*** time for me.

Lose Ozzie and my favorite team won't hire a 2-time WS champion manager

who is just 52 years old??? f***.

Edited September 30, 2011 by greg775

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Coach K's guys haven't done all that well either, but who knows? If the Sox have good players, no matter who they hire, will be considered a good manager. If they have bad players, they will wind up getting waxed. Joe Torre was an idiot when he had bad players and a HOF manager when he had great ones. There are probably a lot of guys like him.

This is pretty much exactly it.

 

However, beyond that, there are a few specific qualities I would like to see.

 

1) Please no gigantic ego. I don't want anyone who thinks he is bigger than the team, city, players, organization, or the game itself. No more distractions. No more DHing Omar Vizquel or Mark Kotsay just to be different, and no batting the pitcher 8th for the same reason.

 

2) I want someone humble and willing to learn, someone who is overflowing with knowledge of the game but yet would consider himself more or less a blank slate. I want someone who is open to all new ideas but still sits on an old-school type baseball foundation - upside/potential based on tools, stuff, mechanics. I definitely do not want some dogmatic preacher who insists on making out his lineup card based on old baseball adages or fangraph spunk. Give me a guy who will actually read the advanced stats and also knows context. Give me someone who will make his mistakes, but then will freely admit them, learn from them, and become a better manager as a result.

 

3) Like Ozzie, I want someone who will at least try to keep the clubhouse loose and try to make the season fun. Obviously this stuff doesn't last forever, but it's probably pretty nice while it lasts given the length of the baseball season and how much time the players are forced to spend with each other.

 

4) Also like Ozzie, I want a manager who will let a young pitcher work "too long." Pitchers need to be able to work themselves out of messy situations, go past the 100 pitch mark, finish out games when they can, etc. Over his tenure here this was Ozzie's best quality IMO. Cooper wouldn't nearly look like the genius he is with another Jerry Manuel managing this team.

 

5) We need someone who can deal with the asshole media. Imagine having a star athlete on your roster making millions upon millions of dollars, and then you, as a manager, having to coax the guy into playing and earning his money. Imagine trying to get a guy like this to give a s*** while simultaneously walking that fine line between hardass and pushover, and trying not to turn the rest of the team against you in the process. Then imagine that none of your efforts work, and the fans blame you for it, and the fans are breathing down your neck over it, and as a result you have the media asking the same "tough questions" over and over for weeks or even months on end, right in the middle of a disappointing season, with a camera and a microphone in your face at all times. Not many people can deal with that without getting drunk or exploding, or coming across as a powerless organizational puppet with zero respect from his players.

 

To me, this all sounds like a younger manager with a long history in the game who has an open mind and is personable. However, there is no way, as a fan, to know the personalities of these guys enough to say that one guy is better than another. As long as we get someone who fits the above 1-4, I will be happy. However, you never know which guy is going to be able to deal with the media, so you just have to take your chances there. I doubt Coop or Sandberg could do that. My picks would be either Sandy, Dave Martinez, or Joe McEwing, and I'd be happy with any of them given what little I know of their make-up. After that it's just wait and see.

 

BTW the teacher does not necessarily make the student, nor does the institution. Ozzie lasted 8 years here and presided over a World Championship and he was the most unconventional hire of them all. There are CEOs and company presidents with little if any college education who actually get invited to speak at the most hallowed institutions in the world and in front of students whose resumes at a similar age would dwarf those of the speakers themselves. This "managerial tree" stuff is really a bunch of nothing IMO, especially when you take into account that we are not talking about managing 1 highly important game right now, we're (ideally) talking about someone who will manage this club for at least the next 3-4 years. And whoever gets the job is going to inherit a likely non-contender anyway, meaning we shouldn't necessarily expect the newly hired to be ready to manage in the playoffs come October 2012. Whoever we get is going to have to develop his own unique way of doing things, and his success is probably going to have more to do with his personality than anything else - can he win the respect of his players, and can he deal with the media. Focusing on a "game" manager primarily is putting the cart before the horse.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[caulfield12]

OK, Francona is likely gone according to this Fox story by Rosenthal that just went up on the Web.

How can the White Sox NOT hire this guy.

This could work out GREAT in the long run.

As much as I LOVE Ozzie, Tito HAS TO BE the man.

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/manager...-red-sox-092911

 

 

Tnis guy has won TWO WS and we don't want him?

Over a couple million bucks?

If we don't hire him this has been a s*** time for me.

Lose Ozzie and my favorite team won't hire a 2-time WS champion manager

who is just 52 years old??? f***.

 

Has he ever won a World Series with a payroll of $90-105 million?

 

That's perhaps the main issue of importance.

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Has he ever won a World Series with a payroll of $90-105 million?

 

That's perhaps the main issue of importance.

The Red Sox didn't hire him because he had 2 WS titles. And if we hire him, we need to hire him for the same reasons the Red Sox did.

 

My main issue re: Francona is his perception of being a players manager almost to a fault. We don't have Big Papis and Mannys here, but we will have more young talent that needs to be kind of protected a bit IMO. But I guess you never know what you're getting until you get it, so maybe Francona would adopt a different type of personality here.

 

No matter what though, Francona would be seen as a "win now" or at least a "win soon" hire, as well as a "money" hire, and I don't think we need any of those things. So if we bring him in, again, do it for the right reasons.

[greg775]

The Red Sox didn't hire him because he had 2 WS titles. And if we hire him, we need to hire him for the same reasons the Red Sox did.

 

My main issue re: Francona is his perception of being a players manager almost to a fault. We don't have Big Papis and Mannys here, but we will have more young talent that needs to be kind of protected a bit IMO. But I guess you never know what you're getting until you get it, so maybe Francona would adopt a different type of personality here.

 

No matter what though, Francona would be seen as a "win now" or at least a "win soon" hire, as well as a "money" hire, and I don't think we need any of those things. So if we bring him in, again, do it for the right reasons.

 

The guy is 52. He is YOUNG by baseball standards.

THis would be a great swap; Oz for Tito.

Tito will win 1-2 WS title with the Sox and be a Hall of Famer!

Sox are gonna blow this and it is UNACCEPTABLE

[caulfield12]

This is pretty much exactly it.

 

However, beyond that, there are a few specific qualities I would like to see.

 

1) Please no gigantic ego. I don't want anyone who thinks he is bigger than the team, city, players, organization, or the game itself. No more distractions. No more DHing Omar Vizquel or Mark Kotsay just to be different, and no batting the pitcher 8th for the same reason.

 

2) I want someone humble and willing to learn, someone who is overflowing with knowledge of the game but yet would consider himself more or less a blank slate. I want someone who is open to all new ideas but still sits on an old-school type baseball foundation - upside/potential based on tools, stuff, mechanics. I definitely do not want some dogmatic preacher who insists on making out his lineup card based on old baseball adages or fangraph spunk. Give me a guy who will actually read the advanced stats and also knows context. Give me someone who will make his mistakes, but then will freely admit them, learn from them, and become a better manager as a result.

 

3) Like Ozzie, I want someone who will at least try to keep the clubhouse loose and try to make the season fun. Obviously this stuff doesn't last forever, but it's probably pretty nice while it lasts given the length of the baseball season and how much time the players are forced to spend with each other.

 

4) Also like Ozzie, I want a manager who will let a young pitcher work "too long." Pitchers need to be able to work themselves out of messy situations, go past the 100 pitch mark, finish out games when they can, etc. Over his tenure here this was Ozzie's best quality IMO. Cooper wouldn't nearly look like the genius he is with another Jerry Manuel managing this team.

 

5) We need someone who can deal with the asshole media. Imagine having a star athlete on your roster making millions upon millions of dollars, and then you, as a manager, having to coax the guy into playing and earning his money. Imagine trying to get a guy like this to give a s*** while simultaneously walking that fine line between hardass and pushover, and trying not to turn the rest of the team against you in the process. Then imagine that none of your efforts work, and the fans blame you for it, and the fans are breathing down your neck over it, and as a result you have the media asking the same "tough questions" over and over for weeks or even months on end, right in the middle of a disappointing season, with a camera and a microphone in your face at all times. Not many people can deal with that without getting drunk or exploding, or coming across as a powerless organizational puppet with zero respect from his players.

 

To me, this all sounds like a younger manager with a long history in the game who has an open mind and is personable. However, there is no way, as a fan, to know the personalities of these guys enough to say that one guy is better than another. As long as we get someone who fits the above 1-4, I will be happy. However, you never know which guy is going to be able to deal with the media, so you just have to take your chances there. I doubt Coop or Sandberg could do that. My picks would be either Sandy, Dave Martinez, or Joe McEwing, and I'd be happy with any of them given what little I know of their make-up. After that it's just wait and see.

 

BTW the teacher does not necessarily make the student, nor does the institution. Ozzie lasted 8 years here and presided over a World Championship and he was the most unconventional hire of them all. There are CEOs and company presidents with little if any college education who actually get invited to speak at the most hallowed institutions in the world and in front of students whose resumes at a similar age would dwarf those of the speakers themselves. This "managerial tree" stuff is really a bunch of nothing IMO, especially when you take into account that we are not talking about managing 1 highly important game right now, we're (ideally) talking about someone who will manage this club for at least the next 3-4 years. And whoever gets the job is going to inherit a likely non-contender anyway, meaning we shouldn't necessarily expect the newly hired to be ready to manage in the playoffs come October 2012. Whoever we get is going to have to develop his own unique way of doing things, and his success is probably going to have more to do with his personality than anything else - can he win the respect of his players, and can he deal with the media. Focusing on a "game" manager primarily is putting the cart before the horse.

 

 

Excellent post.

[caulfield12]

The guy is 52. He is YOUNG by baseball standards.

THis would be a great swap; Oz for Tito.

Tito will win 1-2 WS title with the Sox and be a Hall of Famer!

Sox are gonna blow this and it is UNACCEPTABLE

 

Greg, please don't fixate on Tito Francona as the ONLY choice at this point in time...a million things might change in the next 24-72 hours.

 

Who's to say he would be a better choice than, say, Bob Brenly?

 

We can look at resumes and CV's and argue that Martinez would be a better pick than Alomar, taking everything we actually know into consideration, but it's still just an educated guess.

 

Think of all the "hot coaches" in college basketball that take their mid-major teams to the Sweet 16 or beyond, get huge contracts with the big conference schools and fall on their faces. There are too many to count.

 

If we were going 100% "All In" in 2012, sure, Francona would be the one to do it.

 

But it doesn't appear as if we're going in that direction from all signs and indications. It's the same reason we wouldn't want Tony LaRussa or Joe Torre, either.

 

 

[Cali]

Has anyone else heard any rumors of Boston being interested in Martinez now too? aka my nightmare scenario...

[caulfield12]

Has anyone else heard any rumors of Boston being interested in Martinez now too? aka my nightmare scenario...

 

Can they afford to name a guy with no managerial experience?

 

Epstein's job would be on the line if it backfired. A proven name gets him more time, IMO.

 

That and the fact that hiring someone from the staff of the team that's been bedeviling you for 4 seasons would be the same as the White Sox hiring Ron Gardenhire or Terry Ryan as manager/GM.

 

Doesn't seem very likely. Possible, maybe?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Aou0...-redsoxcollapse

Looks like it is still quite possible Francona comes back...and we might not know one way or the other for another week or so, at the earliest.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2011 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Dave Martinez is currently in his 4th season as bench coach with the Rays. (Photo: Nick Laham/Getty)By DAVE SCHEIBER

FoxSportsFlorida.com Rays Writer

 

ST. PETERSBURG � The home office of Dave Martinez is a long, pine bench that runs the length of the Rays dugout � the grainy base of operations where he fixes his gaze on the field, offering insights and suggestions to manager Joe Maddon from a life in the game.

 

A bench coach's job can be as hard as the wood he sits on or the metal rail he leans against, always side by side with a skipper who relies on his wise counsel at any given moment.

 

It requires a willingness to speak up in high-pressure situations without worrying about getting shot down; the tact and people skills that help forge a bond with the boss, and the wealth of baseball knowledge that transforms him into a trusted and valuable sounding board, not just a voice from the bench.

 

These are traits that apply in abundance to Martinez, a player who batted .276 in 16 seasons with eight different teams, an original member of the Rays who got the franchise's first hit, and now in his fourth season as Tampa Bay bench coach and the man Maddon relies on most during the heat of competition.

 

This past week, I sat down with the 45-year-old Brooklyn, N.Y. native where he earns his keep, the bench, to talk about the rigors of his work and the possibility that he might one day have a bench coach of his own to lean on as a major league manager.

 

You'll also be able to hear from Martinez himself, not to mention many of his colleagues, in a new edition of Inside the Rays premiering this afternoon immediately after the SunSports telecast of the 1:40 p.m. Tampa Bay-Kansas City game, a contest that has suddenly taken on added meaning following the Royals' second straight win over the 17-7 Rays, a 4-2, 11-inning triumph Saturday night at Tropicana Field.

 

"Joe and I talk about a lot of different things during a game," said Martinez, who attended Lake Howell High in Winter Park, Fla. "What I try to do is manage the game the way I see it and when Joe asks me questions, I give him my opinions and make suggestions, and then he does what he deems right."

 

Martinez explained that he and Maddon split the field in half to maximize their observations and then confer on what they've noticed.

 

"All of a sudden, he'll say, 'Did you see that?' or I'll say, 'Hey, did you see what's going on here?' � we kind of put our ideas together, and every day we're trying to make things a little better," he said.

 

It helps that Martinez and Maddon are more than professional associates; they genuinely respect and like each other.

 

"As far as I'm concerned, Joe's more of a good friend than anything," Martinez said. "We get along really well. We see similar things. We communicate really well, I don't ever have a problem speaking my mind and he knows that. And it's vice versa."

 

Not surprisingly, Maddon echoes the sentiment.

 

"Davey brings a lot to the job," he said. "He enters into all the different facets of the game that the position players are involved in. He's not as much involved with the pitching side, but with Shelty (batting coach Derek Shelton) he helps out with the hitting. With Fo (Tom Foley) and Cuz (George Hendrick), he helps with the defense, both with the infield and the outfield.

 

"With me, he knows in advance what I'm thinking so by the time I actually say it, he says 'I already talked to so-and-so.' He's always a step ahead. He's very blunt and good with the players when we mess up. He takes care of a lot of stuff I don't have to take care of there. And the players have a lot of trust and faith in him based on his experience as a major league player as well as how he handles them as a coach."

 

Martinez' baseball resume commands instant respect. The talented lefthander played in 1,919 games and amassed 1,599 hits, while playing a standout defense in centerfield, rightfield and at first base (he even pitched two games for Montreal, once clocked at 87 mph). He began his career in 1987 with the Chicago Cubs, where he played for manager Don Zimmer, later the longtime bench coach for Joe Torre with the Yankees and now the venerable special assistant for the Rays. He later enjoyed a productive stint with the Expos from 1988-91, a teammate of future Tampa Bay third base coach Foley (he would become Martinez's bench coach, possibly), with whom he remains close friends, often driving to the park together.

 

Other stops included Cincinnati (1992), San Francisco (1993-94), the White Sox (1995-97) and

Tampa Bay, playing from the inaugural season of 1998 to 2000, batting .271 in 261 games as the starting rightfielder. He was also the first Devil Ray to steal two bases in a game and hit an inside-the-park homerun. In 2000, Martinez make the rounds in a major way, playing for Tampa Bay, Texas, Toronto and the Cubs, with three trades in a span of 83 days. His final season in the majors came a year later with Atlanta and, perhaps fittingly, Martinez made it to the post-season for the first time in his career, having batted .287 in limited duty for the Braves.

 

Zimmer knows better than many what it takes to excel as a bench coach, he was Torre's trusted adviser during the Yankees' remarkable run of four World Series titles and 12 straight years in the playoffs. Tops on the list for him was having a thick skin.

 

"I could say anything with Joe Torre, we understood each other, and I said, 'If I suggest 10 different things and you don't use any of it, that's not hurting my feelings," Zimmer said. "It's his club. If I get mad that he doesn't use any of my suggestions, then it's not going to work."

 

Zimmer remembers Martinez as an excellent ballplayer from their Cubs days together. "He was a tough player, he had a great arm," he said. "When lefties throw the ball in from the outfield, it can sometimes tail away. He threw the ball just like a bullet."

 

The old baseball man known simply as Zim is happy for his former player. "This is good experience for him," he said. "He knows a lot more now than he did two years ago. He works hard at it and he does a good job. And I think he's a candidate to one day be a manager."

 

Martinez says he isn't focused on that possibility. "People always ask me about managing, and I always say I take one day at a time," he said. "If it ever happens, it happens. Would I like to do it? Yeah, I would. But only time will tell."

 

For now, he's thrilled to be soaking up as much as he can from Maddon.

 

"Joe gives me a lot of leeway here," he said. "I suggest when maybe to pinch-run, when we might want to pinch-hit due to the matchup. I suggest when to bunt, when not to bunt. He lets me do a lot. Every game I'm a student of the game and I've always been that way, even when I played. To me, Joe is probably one of the best, if not the best, teacher I've been around as far as knowing everything about the game. Not just the game, but statistics, using the computer. We talk. I listen. I'll pick his brain. Now it's to the point where I'm on the same page every day."

 

Martinez has one favorite story from his bench coach tenure with Maddon. It happened during the 2008 season, the first time Maddon was thrown out of game during Martinez' tenure.

 

"As a player, I've seen managers get thrown out of a game and they go inside and watch the game on TV, and then they'll relay who they want to pitch, so I figured Joe was sitting in there," he recalled. "So a situation came up, and I told (Eric) Hinske to go in there and see what Joe wants. We were down two runs and I wanted to know whether he wanted to pinch hit. Hinske comes back out and says, 'Hey, Joe's having a glass of wine. You're on your own!"

 

The story illustrates the confidence Maddon has had in Martinez and his desire to let him grow in the job. It's small wonder that manager and bench coach have built such a strong working relationship and friendship � and have gotten such great results along the way.

 

"The thing I can honestly say that's most gratifying out of all of it is that our system is working," he said. "I think the guys believe in everything we tell them. We preach a lot of things but they go out and are doing it and they're constantly learning. It's a good feeling to know that we're getting through to these guys."

 

With the help of a seasoned presence on the bench.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

That's a nice article on Martinez, but it's a fluff piece. Expect one (and maybe several) about Sandy, and perhaps hundreds talking up Francona if he is indeed gone.

 

The main thing is, what will any of these candidates do to make Adam Dunn become a Major League player again? What will they do to turn Rios around, or make Beckham reach at least half his potential? What will they do to make sure that Sale, if he is converted to a starter, becomes a #3 starter or better? Etc. etc. These are all pretty tall tasks and if they can't be done then whoever is managing is going to have to deal with the resulting s***storm from the fans and media.

 

I think there is especially too much Dave Martinez love in here. Tampa Bay is not the market Chicago is. They are not the baseball city Chicago is and neither is their fanbase as passionate. Furthermore, everything is peachy in Tampa ATM while the Sox are deep in the s***ter. On paper Martinez is highly qualified, without a doubt, but he has no idea what he's in for, nor does any other non-veteran candidate, and there's no reason to believe that just because he knows the game like the back of his hand he is also capable of managing a bad team with multiple albatrosses in a major market full of angry fans, and staying positive throughout the process, persevering, and making it through the light at the end of the tunnel.

[caulfield12]

That's a nice article on Martinez, but it's a fluff piece. Expect one (and maybe several) about Sandy, and perhaps hundreds talking up Francona if he is indeed gone.

 

The main thing is, what will any of these candidates do to make Adam Dunn become a Major League player again? What will they do to turn Rios around, or make Beckham reach at least half his potential? What will they do to make sure that Sale, if he is converted to a starter, becomes a #3 starter or better? Etc. etc. These are all pretty tall tasks and if they can't be done then whoever is managing is going to have to deal with the resulting s***storm from the fans and media.

 

I think there is especially too much Dave Martinez love in here. Tampa Bay is not the market Chicago is. They are not the baseball city Chicago is and neither is their fanbase as passionate. Furthermore, everything is peachy in Tampa ATM while the Sox are deep in the s***ter. On paper Martinez is highly qualified, without a doubt, but he has no idea what he's in for, nor does any other non-veteran candidate, and there's no reason to believe that just because he knows the game like the back of his hand he is also capable of managing a bad team with multiple albatrosses in a major market full of angry fans, and staying positive throughout the process, persevering, and making it through the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

Except he has been here (in Chicago) at a time when the stadium was fairly new and expectations were high with those early 90's White Sox teams.

 

If he didn't have the prior connection to the Sox, I would tend to agree 100%.

 

This is the same thing that happened to Todd Lickliter when he left Butler for the University of Iowa. The fishbowl that is Iowa or Nebraska sports coverage (all the focus in on those two university's basketball and football teams) just tore him apart eventually.

 

He wasn't ready for it, even though you have the analogy of reaching the spotlight of the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 or ALCS/NLCS, etc.

 

I do think the Martinez love or whatever you want to call it is 100% attributable to 1) the notion that he's more SABR/mathematics oriented, 2) the "genius" of Joe Maddon supposedly rubbing off, and their 3/4 playoff success in that division and 3) most Sox fans here would seem to prefer the type of GM who will stand up against KW and not just be an "organizational guy" like they, for whatever reason, are perceiving or have perceived Alomar Jr., to be.

 

If Sandy hadn't spent so much time here as a player, I would probably be more open-minded about him. And yet I'm using the fact that Dave Martinez WAS here as well...yet it predates the KW time period of GM by quite a margin.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2011 by caulfield12

[iamshack]

That's a nice article on Martinez, but it's a fluff piece. Expect one (and maybe several) about Sandy, and perhaps hundreds talking up Francona if he is indeed gone.

 

The main thing is, what will any of these candidates do to make Adam Dunn become a Major League player again? What will they do to turn Rios around, or make Beckham reach at least half his potential? What will they do to make sure that Sale, if he is converted to a starter, becomes a #3 starter or better? Etc. etc. These are all pretty tall tasks and if they can't be done then whoever is managing is going to have to deal with the resulting s***storm from the fans and media.

 

I think there is especially too much Dave Martinez love in here. Tampa Bay is not the market Chicago is. They are not the baseball city Chicago is and neither is their fanbase as passionate. Furthermore, everything is peachy in Tampa ATM while the Sox are deep in the s***ter. On paper Martinez is highly qualified, without a doubt, but he has no idea what he's in for, nor does any other non-veteran candidate, and there's no reason to believe that just because he knows the game like the back of his hand he is also capable of managing a bad team with multiple albatrosses in a major market full of angry fans, and staying positive throughout the process, persevering, and making it through the light at the end of the tunnel.

I disagree...the Rays have managed to compete with the Red Sox and Yankees with about 30% of their payrolls...I think there isn't a lot that you could throw at the guy where he wouldn't know what he was in for...it's not like he's been the bench coach of the Rockies or something...

[macsandz]

Expect Tito Francona to become a major candidate for the White Sox job in the next few days.

[macsandz]

Can they afford to name a guy with no managerial experience?

 

Epstein's job would be on the line if it backfired. A proven name gets him more time, IMO.

 

That and the fact that hiring someone from the staff of the team that's been bedeviling you for 4 seasons would be the same as the White Sox hiring Ron Gardenhire or Terry Ryan as manager/GM.

 

Doesn't seem very likely. Possible, maybe?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Aou0...-redsoxcollapse

Looks like it is still quite possible Francona comes back...and we might not know one way or the other for another week or so, at the earliest.

 

Kenny actually has zero issue with a complete lack of managerial experience. The key for him is the coaching staff in support of that Manager.

[iamshack]

Expect Tito Francona to become a major candidate for the White Sox job in the next few days.

I think he already was today....

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Except he has been here (in Chicago) at a time when the stadium was fairly new and expectations were high with those early 90's White Sox teams.

 

If he didn't have the prior connection to the Sox, I would tend to agree 100%.

 

This is the same thing that happened to Todd Lickliter when he left Butler for the University of Iowa. The fishbowl that is Iowa or Nebraska sports coverage (all the focus in on those two university's basketball and football teams) just tore him apart eventually.

 

He wasn't ready for it, even though you have the analogy of reaching the spotlight of the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 or ALCS/NLCS, etc.

 

I do think the Martinez love or whatever you want to call it is 100% attributable to 1) the notion that he's more SABR/mathematics oriented, 2) the "genius" of Joe Maddon supposedly rubbing off, and their 3/4 playoff success in that division and 3) most Sox fans here would seem to prefer the type of GM who will stand up against KW and not just be an "organizational guy" like they, for whatever reason, are perceiving or have perceived Alomar Jr., to be.

 

If Sandy hadn't spent so much time here as a player, I would probably be more open-minded about him. And yet I'm using the fact that Dave Martinez WAS here as well...yet it predates the KW time period of GM by quite a margin.

1) How do we know Sandy isn't completely open to using advanced stats also? We know Martinez is, but just because we know half of it doesn't mean we can score it Martinez 1, Alomar 0 in this category. Kenny is here for the time being and Hahn is looking like he's probably going to take over in 2013, so both of them are going to want the next manager to be at least open to the SABR kind of side of it, especially after the Ozzie debacle.

 

2) This part (the genius of Joe Maddon, the Rays success) is completely meaningless. The Rays have a whole lot more talent than we do, a better better payroll situation than we do, a better farm system and staff, etc. Apples and oranges.

 

3) Every manager is below the GM, the assistant GM, the ownership, etc. Every manager should, to quote The Rock, "Know your role and shut your mouth." The manager needs to be on the same page as those above him. A dumb organizational guy going along with those above him would be of greater use to us than another renegade who thinks he deserves to be treated as if the chain of power starts with himself.

 

Personally, I'd love Martinez on the surface, and I'd also love Sandy on the surface. For all the praise posters are throwing at Martinez, Sandy Alomar has been in just about every situation you can imagine in the game of baseball, from terrible teams to truly great teams; he's been an All-Star and a 3rd string back-up; he's assuredly experienced the best and worst clubhouses; he's probably seen every managerial style out there; he's been through the steriod era and beyond, before, during, and after its peak, and has had a father who was an excellent MLB player himself raise him, so he's seen the game itself grow and change - he's basically lived baseball at the MLB level his entire life; he's caught some of the greatest pitchers of his generation; his brother is a HOFer; he's come from one of the greatest baseball families this sport has known, and has garnered tremendous respect the game over from fans to coaches to players to managers to front office executives; and he also knows the ins and outs of the game like the back of his hand.

 

If it comes down to Sandy vs. Dave Martinez I will feel, as a Sox fan, like we can do no wrong, and also, like we will get better no matter what. However as I've said, ultimately it comes down to whether or not these guys can deal with the s***storms, deal with the anger and the joy and the ups and downs, deal with the injuries and prima donna players and bad trades, etc. and still get their players to go out there onto the field and give it at least most of what they've got at least most of the time. Neither of these candidates have done anything like this before and there is no reason to expect that they will or will not be able to do it. They're both totally unproven, but they are both legitimate prospects. If you want proven you go with Francona. But if you go with a prospect I don't see how you can look at the Rays situation and then expect that s*** to happen over here just because you hired Martinez. That's retarded. If we hire Dave Martinez we still have the 2012 White Sox playing for him and those guys don't look very good. I really see no reason to favor him over Sandy when they're both equally unproven in the most important aspects.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I disagree...the Rays have managed to compete with the Red Sox and Yankees with about 30% of their payrolls...I think there isn't a lot that you could throw at the guy where he wouldn't know what he was in for...it's not like he's been the bench coach of the Rockies or something...

There's probably no difference between being a bench coach for the Rockies or Rays when it comes to the demands of the media. He doesn't have to deal with the media. He doesn't have to deal with the bad stuff. He doesn't have to carry all that weight himself, Maddon has done it. And Maddon has happily done all that in a city that really doesn't care all that much about baseball and has pretty much only had good things going on during his tenure.

 

Dave Martinez has no idea what he would be walking into, which is my point. He would be walking into a situation where, from the very get-go, he'd be smacked in the face with questions he couldn't possibly answer. What, is he going to compare Adam Dunn's situation to Pat Burrell's or something? Put yourself in his shoes, how would you deal with all the Dunn questions? Sox fans aren't very happy right now and Sox fans are a pretty passionate bunch. They'll throw him a parade the day he's hired, but they'll be up his ass by the end of April if things aren't going right.

 

I'd be happy if we hired him too because I think that, just like there's no reason we should expect him capable of handling the toughest aspects of the job, there's no reason we shouldn't expect him capable of that. I just think this site is way too generous to Martinez and way too hard on Sandy. On paper, Sandy is certainly no less qualified for the greatest demands of the job that is managing this team in this city, and that's all that matters. I would definitely bet Sandy is also very open to the SABR side as well, and I'd also bet that he's competent enough to appoint the necessary help if he needs any.

[caulfield12]

That bottom paragraph is the key here.

 

Can Martinez actually instill the "Rays' way" without the Rays' players??

 

Very hard to pull off if it doesn't pay off in wins and losses right away.

 

In that sense, perhaps Alomar would be better because expectations, for the reasons everyone's been mentioning, would be higher with Martinez, whether that's valid or not, the perception is already developing.

 

Heck, for all we know, Joe McEwing might be better than both Martinez and Alomar Jr.

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Martinez couldn't pull off the Rays way without the Rays players any more than Ozzie could pull off the Sox way (i.e. underperform, play like s***, quit before you've even started, cry a good amount of the time, blame other people, fight about stuff, talk about how you're imrproving on The Score and then proceed to go 0-4 with 3 K's in the game) with the Sox players.

 

The Rays way is something we'll never see here, and also something you rarely see anywhere. Just think, these guys let Josh Hamilton go for nothing. Nothing. And they're still the best organization in baseball. Just think about that for a minute.

 

Martinez needs to be separated from anything Rays-related IMO. Martinez is simply a good, veteran baseball man with an aptitude for advanced statistics who seems to be very thorough and well-liked by his players. If you hire him, that's who you're hiring; you're not replacing the ownership, the front office, the scouting staff, the baseball academies, the farm system, and swapping the payroll.

[iamshack]

I really don't give a s*** about the Rays way.

 

I want a manager who understand how the game of baseball, in this era, should be played, and can implement that.

 

I also want a manager who understands how to bring young players along and give them the best chance to contribute to the Club, rather than one who seems to want to make it as difficult as possible.

 

 

[Texsox]

I want a manager who successfully redefines how the game should be played today, not following the crowd.

[Milkman delivers]

Alomar may prove to be a better manager than Martinez none of us know. What we do know is that Alomar would be the comfortable pick for this organization. I think they need something more than "comfortable" at this point in time even if that comes with more risk.

 

Very much agreed.

[Texsox]

Actually, looking over what the club needs more than anything else, a quality DH, I say allow Dunn to pick the new manager. Dunn hitting .265 with his usual power would add more to this club than any manager.

[Texsox]

Very much agreed.

 

Haven't we just lived eight years with the uncomfortable? Less show and more go feels better.