2011-12 White Sox off season catch all thread

[elrockinMT]

So you are saying KW purposely passed on significantly more value to make this particular trade? Because two "so-so minor league pitchers" is what KW got for Quentin as you said. If that isn't the true value of Quentin, then he must have passed on better trades right? That's what your saying?

 

The reasons KW dealt Quentin are irrelevant to his value. He's worth what is right now because of his current abilities and expected production, not what players like Dunn & Rios are being paid.

 

Your problem here has nothing to do with a lack of statistics, but simply not using basic logic to walk through the scenario. Quentin is worth very little due to his own doing and no one else's. Why is this so hard for you accept?

 

 

Glad to hear you know what my problem is I don't believe I ever suggested what Dunn and Rios were making is what CQ should make. I also believe CQ has produced at a higher level than Rios and Dunn did especially in 2011. Yes, CQ is oft injured, but he was our second best RBI man last year. All I see is how we have all these sabermetrics to go by and that means I am supposed to accept our players are worthless and should be traded for low level minor leaguers. Ok, if you say so...

Edited January 4, 2012 by elrockinMT

[southsider2k5]

Interesting thought here. If Floyd is not traded before this season is over and he has a Gavin-like year (solid, nothing spectacular), do the Sox look to re-sign him? What kid of money could he expect?

 

On this market, I would imagine a 4 to 5 year deal in the 11-13 million per year is about right. A bit less than Danks, but still a nice dollar amount. He is a guy who is a workhorse and has put up decent, but not great, numbers.

[Eminor3rd]

Glad to hear you know what my problem is I don't believe I ever suggested what Dunn and Rios were making is what CQ should make. I also believe CQ has produced at a higher level than Rios and Dunn did especially in 2011. Yes, CQ is oft injured, but he was our second best RBI man last year. All I see is how we have all these sabermetrics to go by and that means I am supposed to accept our players are worthless and should be traded for low level minor leaguers. Ok, if you say so...

 

CQ fetched a low return because SD ate the whole contract, that's how it works. KW has to cut payroll, so he has no choice but to get total salary relief. It's stupid to assume that KW chose a crappy return over a better return. He's been shopping him for months, I have no doubt that this was about all that could be had if the Sox wanted to not pay ANY of the contract.

 

This has NOTHING to do with sabermetrics.

[elrockinMT]

I see, so your intangibles argument went out the window when someone pointed out that CQ's intangibles weren't enough to win the division the last 3 years.

 

 

No, I think it's because folks don't seem to read all of what I am saying or make an effort in some cases to look at both sides of the situation. They then do what they accuse me and other posters here of doing and try and justify it with name calling and slights. Believe it or not I know baseball and have been involved in the game for a lot of years. I try hard not to slight others when i post, but I have my opinion and I voice it. I accept that others may not agree and that's fine. I don't really think this board is set up in a way to be a battle ground of competing opinions. I am not in this to win the argument. I simply state my opinion. The ole Milkman is right when he posts "It's like arguing with a wall." As well it should be because it shouldn't have to be a winning argument. That's one of the only times I will agree with Milk. Carlos Quentin is gone, Mark Buerhle and Frasor are gone. Nothing can be done to change that. I look at our return for CQ and my question is was it enough? Was it the type of transaction Kenny Williams said he would make only if the retuirn was major league ready? I don't think it was and thus the next assumption would be if the trade was in reality a salary dump. Why was it a salary dump? Because of bad decisions by the GM. Now he has to dig himself out of the hole. Can it be done with the return we are getting. That is an unknown.

 

Maybe what some folks need to do is take a step back when responding and edit their posts. It is really getting out of hand with name calling, etc. Again I have my opinions and take on things and others have theirs. Let's be civil please. I know I have answered beyond what you have posted in reply to my statement, but I think it is necessary to write. By the way I don't think you -Balta- have been unprofessional when reponding just as I hope I have not been.

Edited January 4, 2012 by elrockinMT

[elrockinMT]

CQ fetched a low return because SD ate the whole contract, that's how it works. KW has to cut payroll, so he has no choice but to get total salary relief. It's stupid to assume that KW chose a crappy return over a better return. He's been shopping him for months, I have no doubt that this was about all that could be had if the Sox wanted to not pay ANY of the contract.

 

This has NOTHING to do with sabermetrics.

 

 

OK. That is a valid way to look at it. But, I am not saying he chose a worse return. I am not sure, nor can anyone say I guess, what he might have got in Feb or March, or if he shouldn't have looked at signing CQ like he did John Danks. Those were options too. Maybe they know more about these prospects then meets the eye. It must have been a salary dump #1 and return #2?

[Eminor3rd]

OK. That is a valid way to look at it. But, I am not saying he chose a worse return. I am not sure, nor can anyone say I guess, what he might have got in Feb or March, or if he shouldn't have looked at signing CQ like he did John Danks. Those were options too. Maybe they know more about these prospects then meets the eye. It must have been a salary dump #1 and return #2?

 

Yes, salary probably had to come first. Here's how I see it: JR tells KW that he has X amount of dollars for the payroll budget. Maybe KW argues with him a bit, but they eventually setle on a number. This year, that number is undoubtedly significantly lower than last year. So, somehow, KW has to make sure he gets the payroll below that number. That affects how he views his assets. So it wasn't like, "I want to trade CQ becasue I don't like him or I don't think he's good," but instead, "I have to cut payroll somehow. Where does the team have depth? Which guys make a lot of money? Looks like CQ is gonna make $7-8m and I have a pre-arb guy that I can replace him with. Okay, I guess I need to try to move CQ for the best I can." And at that point it's just weighing cost/benefit.

 

So yes, it's KW's fault that the team sucks and thus must cut payroll, but it's not KW's fault that he couldn't get more out of CQ in this instance, because if he didn't have to cut payroll, there's no way he wouldn't choose a better prospect and pick up half of CQ's contract.

[Balta1701]

OK. That is a valid way to look at it. But, I am not saying he chose a worse return. I am not sure, nor can anyone say I guess, what he might have got in Feb or March, or if he shouldn't have looked at signing CQ like he did John Danks. Those were options too. Maybe they know more about these prospects then meets the eye. It must have been a salary dump #1 and return #2?

It would be absolutely insane right now to look at signing Carlos Quentin long term. I wouldn't sign him for 3/$21.

[Balta1701]

Yes, salary probably had to come first. Here's how I see it: JR tells KW that he has X amount of dollars for the payroll budget. Maybe KW argues with him a bit, but they eventually setle on a number. This year, that number is undoubtedly significantly lower than last year. So, somehow, KW has to make sure he gets the payroll below that number. That affects how he views his assets. So it wasn't like, "I want to trade CQ becasue I don't like him or I don't think he's good," but instead, "I have to cut payroll somehow. Where does the team have depth? Which guys make a lot of money? Looks like CQ is gonna make $7-8m and I have a pre-arb guy that I can replace him with. Okay, I guess I need to try to move CQ for the best I can." And at that point it's just weighing cost/benefit.

 

So yes, it's KW's fault that the team sucks and thus must cut payroll, but it's not KW's fault that he couldn't get more out of CQ in this instance, because if he didn't have to cut payroll, there's no way he wouldn't choose a better prospect and pick up half of CQ's contract.

The other thing to remember continues to be that Carlos Quentin and his 1/2 seasons if you're lucky have been a big part of the problem over the last 3 years. Carlos Quentin has been part of the problem, not part of the solution. Quit being part of the problem and put the other guy back on.

[elrockinMT]

It would be absolutely insane right now to look at signing Carlos Quentin long term. I wouldn't sign him for 3/$21.

 

 

I assume you are baseing it on his injuries? That's a tough stance.

 

I should have added that I can certainly understand the injury concern if that is your position. (not trying to put words in your mouth) It's just that injuries are part of the game and CQ sustained them with hard nosed and all out play.

Edited January 4, 2012 by elrockinMT

[Balta1701]

I assume you are baseing it on his injuries? That's a tough stance.

 

I should have added that I can certainly understand the injury concern if that is your position. (not trying to put words in your mouth) It's just that injuries are part of the game and CQ sustained them with hard nosed and all out play.

yes, that's based entirely on his injuries. The White Sox would almost have been better off without Carlos Quentin the last 3 years. It doesn't matter that he hurt himself last year being "Hard nosed", it still cost him 2 months of the season. 1 play is not worth 2 months of the season. Worse still, not all of his injuries have been hard nosed...the Plantar Fasciitis certainly wasn't. The broken wrist was more stupid than hard nosed; that literally could have cost us a world series appearance. The injruies he had with Arizona which required shoulder surgery weren't hard nosed.

 

Carlos Quentin has been fully healthy for 0 out of the last 4 seasons. 3 of those seasons, it appears that injuries severely derailed his production, to the point where he was almost useless as a player. I don't care if he hits 20 home runs if he can barely move in the outfield and on the basepaths. Worse yet, if a team wants to keep Carlos Quentin on its roster, it has to have a starting caliber outfielder stashed somewhere to replace him when he gets hurt, because it always happens.

 

Carlos Quentin in 2008 was a low risk, high reward talent. Now, Carlos Quentin is getting a pretty good salary, he is no longer low risk, he's high risk...and we haven't seen the 2008 raking Carlos Quentin since his foot injury, so I'm not even sure he's high reward any more.

[Eminor3rd]

I assume you are baseing it on his injuries? That's a tough stance.

 

I should have added that I can certainly understand the injury concern if that is your position. (not trying to put words in your mouth) It's just that injuries are part of the game and CQ sustained them with hard nosed and all out play.

 

But see this is where sabermetric numbers help. It's great that he's kept his head high and tried hard, but respectable or not, he hits no homers when he's on the DL. This is where WAR is great -- you get to measure his contributions, injuries included, no guessing. We can project the amount of games he's likely to play, and measure his value in a counting stat. Rate stats are not accurate ways to measure the contribution of a guy who is going to miss 30 - 50 games.

[GreatScott82]

That is without Peavy's buyout and Floyds $9.5 million option.

With Peavy's BO its up to 69 million and with Floyd's option. (I think they should take it.) It would bump the payroll up to $78.5 million. Going into that year, you may have a rotation of Danks, Floyd, Sale, Humber, Castro/Molina/Axelrod.

 

With a young rotation and about 22-$30 million to spend on free agents and maybe more (pending on if they trade Thorton or not). This team can significantly be much better sooner than we thought. I actually don't mind taking this 2012 season as a "Lets see what we have in our guys" type season.

 

I really hope KW deals Thorton soon!

[DirtySox]

I really hope KW deals Thorton soon!

 

I hope Floyd goes too. Send him to the Jays for Deck McGuire and other pieces.

[caulfield12]

Fair enough.

 

The argument to be made on KW's behalf is that they believe Hernandez can help right away (assuming Santiago is in AAA starting) and/or they're trading Matt Thornton and need additional LHR depth.

 

Seems Hernandez will definitely get a shot, as the 2nd or 3rd lefty...depending on whether or not one of the many RHR prospects blows everyone away in ST.

 

Castro clearly has been perceived as having the talent and the ability to be a big league pitcher. To start off the 2012 season? Well, probably not, unless it's in the bullpen.

 

He has more upside than anyone currently in our organization not named Molina, so clearly he should be building up his confidence in the minors...although we know with Frasor gone that another hole has been blown in the bullpen.

 

Castro, Axelrod, Santiago and Zach Stewart...all of those guys could be fighting for the final spot on the pitching staff coming out of Arizona.

 

So I'll agree it was 60% salary dump (they could have just not offered arbitration and let him walk) and 40% about believing they could get some legit talent back for him in return, which is exactly what happened.

 

Frasor was more dubious...bringing him back, but we still got $700,000 worth of prospects and saved paying him this year...that one was much more of a head scratcher (along with Santos/Molina) than the Frasor move.

 

 

No, I think it's because folks don't seem to read all of what I am saying or make an effort in some cases to look at both sides of the situation. They then do what they accuse me and other posters here of doing and try and justify it with name calling and slights. Believe it or not I know baseball and have been involved in the game for a lot of years. I try hard not to slight others when i post, but I have my opinion and I voice it. I accept that others may not agree and that's fine. I don't really think this board is set up in a way to be a battle ground of competing opinions. I am not in this to win the argument. I simply state my opinion. The ole Milkman is right when he posts "It's like arguing with a wall." As well it should be because it shouldn't have to be a winning argument. That's one of the only times I will agree with Milk. Carlos Quentin is gone, Mark Buerhle and Frasor are gone. Nothing can be done to change that. I look at our return for CQ and my question is was it enough? Was it the type of transaction Kenny Williams said he would make only if the retuirn was major league ready? I don't think it was and thus the next assumption would be if the trade was in reality a salary dump. Why was it a salary dump? Because of bad decisions by the GM. Now he has to dig himself out of the hole. Can it be done with the return we are getting. That is an unknown.

 

Maybe what some folks need to do is take a step back when responding and edit their posts. It is really getting out of hand with name calling, etc. Again I have my opinions and take on things and others have theirs. Let's be civil please. I know I have answered beyond what you have posted in reply to my statement, but I think it is necessary to write. By the way I don't think you -Balta- have been unprofessional when reponding just as I hope I have not been.

 

[caulfield12]

I hope Floyd goes too. Send him to the Jays for Deck McGuire and other pieces.

 

Another trade with Toronto, really?

[caulfield12]

With Peavy's BO its up to 69 million and with Floyd's option. (I think they should take it.) It would bump the payroll up to $78.5 million. Going into that year, you may have a rotation of Danks, Floyd, Sale, Humber, Castro/Molina/Axelrod.

 

With a young rotation and about 22-$30 million to spend on free agents and maybe more (pending on if they trade Thorton or not). This team can significantly be much better sooner than we thought. I actually don't mind taking this 2012 season as a "Lets see what we have in our guys" type season.

 

I really hope KW deals Thorton soon!

 

You really believe we can win without Thornton in 2012, using Ohman/Santiago/Hernandez/waiver wire?

 

We've tried that before and it was a disaster.

 

Actually, the only useful piece in that LHR tryout spring was Javier Lopez, and we dealt him for Riske.

 

If they can get a return somewhere between Molina and what they got for Quentin, and save all that money committed to Thornton, they should look closely at it.

 

Personally, I think they should see how things go the first half of the season...wait until the demand is even higher and Thornton can prove last year was "flukey" and maybe you can get yourself yet another Molina for Thornton.

 

 

[knightni]

Frasor was more dubious...bringing him back, but we still got $700,000 worth of prospects and saved paying him this year...that one was much more of a head scratcher (along with Santos/Molina) than the Frasor move.

Frasor was more dubious than Frasor?

 

Actually, the only useful piece in that LHR tryout spring was Javier Lopez, and we dealt him for Riske.

Boone Logan and Neil Cotts were both good ST tryout lefties that played decently well for the Sox.

[caulfield12]

I meant more dubious than the QUentin move, which was telegraphed 6 months ago or longer.

 

 

 

I can't remember which offseason it was....that we brought in 10-12 journeyman/MLFA's/veterans on their last legs for an open tryout for a LHR spot.

 

None of those guys stuck.

 

Of course, we've come up with guys before like Marte and Thornton, via trade.

 

But usually picking up guys from the scrap heap (and Sisco counts in that category), not such a high probability of working out in April.

 

Sometimes you get a a Loiaza, Jenks or Santos, but 90-95% of the time nothing.

 

 

And I just recall that the one guy who pitched well as Javier Lopez and he went on to pitch very well for the Red Sox and had a pretty decent career, overall.

 

Logan and Cotts were both acquired by the Sox...I was referring to journeymen/scrap heap guys like Nelson, Myers, Porzio, Jose Paniagua, etc.

Edited January 5, 2012 by caulfield12

[hi8is]

Would the Reds take on 2/3rds of Rios if it meant getting Floyd for 2 B level pitching prospects?

[hi8is]

The White Sox signed 2000 first-round pick Corey Smith, Goldstein tweets. The 29-year-old has never reached the Majors.

[Eminor3rd]

Would the Reds take on 2/3rds of Rios if it meant getting Floyd for 2 B level pitching prospects?

 

No chance, now that they got Latos. Would be an interesting move though. You'd have to figure KW would definitely get Cespedes then.

[hi8is]

No chance, now that they got Latos. Would be an interesting move though. You'd have to figure KW would definitely get Cespedes then.

I'd imagine the Red's would enjoy adding Floyd to Latos.

They're also looking for outfield depth.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

If the Cubs can dump Zambrano on someone, surely we can find a taker for Rios......right? Right? RIGHT!?!?!?!??!

[Jordan4life_2007]

Would the Reds take on 2/3rds of Rios if it meant getting Floyd for 2 B level pitching prospects?

 

Not a chance in hell. The Reds are set in CF/RF with Stubbs/Bruce. Chris Heisey is their '12 projected every day LF. He's younger, MUCH cheaper and was considerably better than Rios last year. They're in no position, nor would it make any sense whatsoever, to even think about Rios and his albatross contract, even 2/3rds of it. They got their man in Latos.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'd imagine the Red's would enjoy adding Floyd to Latos.

They're also looking for outfield depth.

 

They're much, much, much smarter and cheaper ways of acquiring OF depth. I can appreciate everybody wants Rios, Dunn and Peavy gone. But coming up with these ridiculous scenarios (not just you hi8is) that make no sense at all for the non-White Sox side is not going to make the impossible possible.