2011-12 White Sox off season catch all thread

[caulfield12]

Hey Balta ...

 

100% agreed. That was the classic Kenny-move that we all seem to know, that every GM in baseball must know, and that some will defend as "oh, that's just how Kenny is." Yeah, and it sucks. And it hasn't been working all that well. And it means he isn't doing up-until-the-last-minute due diligence by seeking to maximize his trading chips.

 

DISLIKED the over-anxious Santos deal not because I loved Santos, nor because I knew a darned thing about Molina (other than what the very mixed after-the-fact scouting reports disclosed), but because it gave every appearance of being same old "swing-for-the-fences, take the high-risk (the unnecessarily high-risk)" Kenny.

 

My point about being elated if Kenny has now learned some patience was referring to POST-Santos trade. Maybe HIS boss took up back to the woodshed and set him straight. Maybe some trusted elder statesman like Buddy Bell had him look at himself in the mirror. If he had changed it could certainly happen AFTER yet another Kenny moment (that he finally realized WAS a Kenny moment).

 

And, just to be fair, I do always reserve the thought that internally they may know things about Sergio that we don't (perhaps, maxed-out and all down-hill-from-here) and things about Molina that we don't too (despite what some of the naysayers claiming, this guy absolutely being the real enough deal that we must get him).

 

Bottom-line for me is that no one on our roster is going to bring us a Cahill, Latos, or Gio type return, but of any of them, Gavin (or Alexei -- but I don't trade him because I smell the Ramirez-Tank-Cespedes era on the horizon) is the one that if played correctly COULD bring back a relatively decent haul.

 

So, GO KENNY!

 

 

There's another way of looking at this...because of Paddy, we got in on Molina one step before the rest of baseball was onto him and he became one of the best pitching prospects in baseball.

 

KW has learned his lesssons with closers over the past decade, in terms of not getting too attached to big-name guys like Koch, that he can succeed going on the cheap with the likes of Takatsu, Hermanson, Jenk and Santos.

 

In that case, better to get this Molina kid too early rather than too late, when the cost is Alexei Ramirez, Dayan Viciedo or a starting pitcher who would cripple our big league team's chances going forward.

 

If we didn't have Addison Reed, Crain and Frasor behind Sergio, this move wouldn't have been contemplated, not to mention Zach Stewart.

 

(Yes, it's not the best scenario when Hudson becomes Jackson becomes 2 bullpen guys, granted...but there's also the freedom of getting out of allocating $15 million in payroll and especially dumping Teahen's dead weight from the roster.)

 

Of course, Molina still might become a bust...or he might end up being our equivalent of Johan Santana/Liriano, you never can tell.

Edited December 24, 2011 by caulfield12

[sunofgold]

This team is coming together very nicely. If KW has to cut some salary, there are still a couple guys that he could trade (Thornton, Quentin). If he doesn't then there isn't any rush to make moves. Both Thornton and Quentin might have more value near the trading deadline in 2012.

 

KW has been putting out high prices for our players. Thus, he probably isn't in a rush. Maybe JR said that team salary is in an acceptable range right now. It is lower than 2011.

 

Probably the only big question going into next year right now is who is going to be the closer? A lot of people are saying Addison. Just don't make Thornton the closer if he is on the team.

[caulfield12]

This team is coming together very nicely. If KW has to cut some salary, there are still a couple guys that he could trade (Thornton, Quentin). If he doesn't then there isn't any rush to make moves. Both Thornton and Quentin might have more value near the trading deadline in 2012.

 

KW has been putting out high prices for our players. Thus, he probably isn't in a rush. Maybe JR said that team salary is in an acceptable range right now. It is lower than 2011.

 

Probably the only big question going into next year right now is who is going to be the closer? A lot of people are saying Addison. Just don't make Thornton the closer if he is on the team.

 

 

1. Reed

2. Crain

3. Frasor OR Zach Stewart

 

There's always the chance someone emerges from out of nowhere (like a Scott Radinsky or Boone Logan) and makes the team, but usually it's LH relievers who can jump like that.

 

Soptic is getting some hype just like Nathan Jones did in the past, but there aren't many examples of RH relievers appearing out of thin air. Jenks and Santos are about as good for examples as any, and both were our pet projects.

 

 

 

 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

1. Reed

2. Crain

3. Frasor OR Zach Stewart

 

There's always the chance someone emerges from out of nowhere (like a Scott Radinsky or Boone Logan) and makes the team, but usually it's LH relievers who can jump like that.

 

Soptic is getting some hype just like Nathan Jones did in the past, but there aren't many examples of RH relievers appearing out of thin air. Jenks and Santos are about as good for examples as any, and both were our pet projects.

 

I think Crain is going to get the job, and Reed will take over middle of the year. Although, maybe they begin the year with a closer-by-committee?

[sunofgold]

I think Crain is going to get the job, and Reed will take over middle of the year. Although, maybe they begin the year with a closer-by-committee?

 

Haven't heard the White Sox are going make Stewart a short reliever. I could see him in the long reliever spot since there is no opening for starters right now. And we also have Axelrod who could start and then Molina hopefully coming up soon.

 

Right now I think that Reed has to get the job (by default really) . Crain backing Reed up if he cannot do the job. Or open competition for the job.

 

But Thornton cannot close. 25 blown saves, 20 saves. That is enough for me.

 

[caulfield12]

Haven't heard the White Sox are going make Stewart a short reliever. I could see him in the long reliever spot since there is no opening for starters right now. And we also have Axelrod who could start and then Molina hopefully coming up soon.

 

Right now I think that Reed has to get the job (by default really) . Crain backing Reed up if he cannot do the job. Or open competition for the job.

 

But Thornton cannot close. 25 blown saves, 20 saves. That is enough for me.

 

 

Balta is waiting to go all Incredible Hulk on that idea.

 

With Sale already a potential victim of the bullpen experiment in 2011...trading Santos/moving Sale/Pena departing/trading Thornton and forcing Zach Stewart into a relief role doesn't quite seem to be a good enough payoff for Daniel Hudson.

 

Where it looks like a magical move is if Stewart. Sale and Molina put up Buehrle/Floyd/Hudson/Gio Gonzalez/Edwin Jackson numbers on the board.

 

Otherwise, the future is bleak indeed.

Edited December 24, 2011 by caulfield12

[beck72]

Gavin will be a very valuable trading chip. Esp to the AL teams that need a SP. The only AL team that improved their rotation so far via trade or Free agency was the Angels with the CJ Wilson signing. The Red Sox, Yanks, Rangers need a SP. Not to mention how the NL teams that didn't improve their rotations must compete with those teams that did-the Marlins, Nats, Cincy.

 

The sox are sitting nicely with Gavin as two cost controlled years of him should be worth a few very good prospects.

 

[Balta1701]

Balta is waiting to go all Incredible Hulk on that idea.

 

With Sale already a potential victim of the bullpen experiment in 2011...trading Santos/moving Sale/Pena departing/trading Thornton and forcing Zach Stewart into a relief role doesn't quite seem to be a good enough payoff for Daniel Hudson.

 

Where it looks like a magical move is if Stewart. Sale and Molina put up Buehrle/Floyd/Hudson/Gio Gonzalez/Edwin Jackson numbers on the board.

 

Otherwise, the future is bleak indeed.

AAARRRRGHHHHHHH!!!

 

Cooper did say earlier this offseason that he thinks Stewart's long term role is in the bullpen. But even if that's true, it's crazy to start him in the pen this year. Even as a reliever, he'd benefit from starting in AAA and piling up innings, in terms of getting practice on his offspeed stuff.

 

Furthermore, if there's a 10% chance he turns into a successful starter, a starter is so much more valuable than a reliever it's silly to give that away without at least trying.

 

You move him back to the pen for a year, that's it, he's never leaving the pen again.

[Chicago White Sox]

AAARRRRGHHHHHHH!!!

 

Cooper did say earlier this offseason that he thinks Stewart's long term role is in the bullpen. But even if that's true, it's crazy to start him in the pen this year. Even as a reliever, he'd benefit from starting in AAA and piling up innings, in terms of getting practice on his offspeed stuff.

 

Furthermore, if there's a 10% chance he turns into a successful starter, a starter is so much more valuable than a reliever it's silly to give that away without at least trying.

 

You move him back to the pen for a year, that's it, he's never leaving the pen again.

Yeah, I agree completely. Stewart should start the season in AAA and continue to develop as a starter. With Reed, Crain & Frasor, we only need one or two more right-handed relievers. We have several options in-house already and maybe they'll bring in another guy or two on minor league deals. I'm not too worried about those last couple spots. There are a couple of much bigger question marks that will dictate our season.

[Balta1701]

Yeah, I agree completely. Stewart should start the season in AAA and continue to develop as a starter. With Reed, Crain & Frasor, we only need one or two more right-handed relievers. We have several options in-house already and maybe they'll bring in another guy or two on minor league deals. I'm not too worried about those last couple spots. There are a couple of much bigger question marks that will dictate our season.

If the team were truly rebuilding, I'd totally agree. Go for either scrap heap or Axelrod in the bullpen for spots 6 and 7.

 

If the team has any desire to compete, and you look at a rotation with Sale, Peavy, and Humber in it, you have to expect that a deep bullpen would be the only way you'd have a shot to win the division. We decided we didn't need that when we traded Santos though.

 

And that's why people keep suggesting things like Stewart or even Molina in this year's pen.

[Milkman delivers]

AAARRRRGHHHHHHH!!!

 

Cooper did say earlier this offseason that he thinks Stewart's long term role is in the bullpen. But even if that's true, it's crazy to start him in the pen this year. Even as a reliever, he'd benefit from starting in AAA and piling up innings, in terms of getting practice on his offspeed stuff.

 

Furthermore, if there's a 10% chance he turns into a successful starter, a starter is so much more valuable than a reliever it's silly to give that away without at least trying.

 

You move him back to the pen for a year, that's it, he's never leaving the pen again.

 

I don't know why this made me laugh as much as it did.

[witesoxfan]

This is an oddball question, but I'm trying to buy tickets for my dad as a Christmas gift, but also as a family gift, and I have a soon to be 1-year old nephew. I would like to see the White Sox at Target Field, but have no idea what the hell they do with infants. It may be different between stadiums, but I imagine it's pretty much the same throughout. Anyways, does anyone know the Sox policy on this? I imagine the Twins is the same, but want atleast a little confirmation.

[Milkman delivers]

This is an oddball question, but I'm trying to buy tickets for my dad as a Christmas gift, but also as a family gift, and I have a soon to be 1-year old nephew. I would like to see the White Sox at Target Field, but have no idea what the hell they do with infants. It may be different between stadiums, but I imagine it's pretty much the same throughout. Anyways, does anyone know the Sox policy on this? I imagine the Twins is the same, but want atleast a little confirmation.

 

It's a little known fact, but the Fun-damentals deck actually has a row of cages, similar to a kennel. You drop off your kid and $20 bucks, they handle the rest.

[ScottyDo]

This is an oddball question, but I'm trying to buy tickets for my dad as a Christmas gift, but also as a family gift, and I have a soon to be 1-year old nephew. I would like to see the White Sox at Target Field, but have no idea what the hell they do with infants. It may be different between stadiums, but I imagine it's pretty much the same throughout. Anyways, does anyone know the Sox policy on this? I imagine the Twins is the same, but want atleast a little confirmation.

My understanding is that the Twins and their fans eat babies, so I would either avoid Target Field entirely or get a fake mustache for the kid.

[southsider2k5]

This is an oddball question, but I'm trying to buy tickets for my dad as a Christmas gift, but also as a family gift, and I have a soon to be 1-year old nephew. I would like to see the White Sox at Target Field, but have no idea what the hell they do with infants. It may be different between stadiums, but I imagine it's pretty much the same throughout. Anyways, does anyone know the Sox policy on this? I imagine the Twins is the same, but want atleast a little confirmation.

 

As long as they are shorter than the turnstyle (36" I believe) and not needing their own seat (ie sitting in someones lap) they don't need a ticket.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

It's a little known fact, but the Fun-damentals deck actually has a row of cages, similar to a kennel. You drop off your kid and $20 bucks, they handle the rest.

 

I'd assume you are kidding, but this sounds like a great idea.

[elrockinMT]

Gavin will be a very valuable trading chip. Esp to the AL teams that need a SP. The only AL team that improved their rotation so far via trade or Free agency was the Angels with the CJ Wilson signing. The Red Sox, Yanks, Rangers need a SP. Not to mention how the NL teams that didn't improve their rotations must compete with those teams that did-the Marlins, Nats, Cincy.

 

The sox are sitting nicely with Gavin as two cost controlled years of him should be worth a few very good prospects.

 

 

The Sox are all in for 2012. Gavin and Danks and Peavy and Humber and and a fight for #5. Reed and Crain and Thornton and Frasor in the pen. CQ in right. Mark my words. We are counting on a turnaround from some non-performers

Edited December 24, 2011 by elrockinMT

[caulfield12]

The Sox are all in for 2012. Gavin and Danks and Peavy and Humber and and a fight for #5. Reed and Crain and Thornton and Frasor in the pen. CQ in right. Mark my words. We are counting on a turnaround from some non-performers

 

 

You're going to sit Viciedo another season?

 

Why?

 

QUentin is not a part of the future.

 

What is going to be our bright idea this year, to leave him in Charlotte yet again and make him into a catcher?

[beck72]

The Sox are all in for 2012. Gavin and Danks and Peavy and Humber and and a fight for #5. Reed and Crain and Thornton and Frasor in the pen. CQ in right. Mark my words. We are counting on a turnaround from some non-performers

Trading Gavin for younger players wouldn't mean the sox are "out" for 2012. Depending on the deal, the sox could have players who could contribute now. And the other SP's--Peavy, Sale, Humber, Danks, Stewart/ Axelrod, et al--could pick up the slack left by Gavin.

 

And I can't see Quentin on the Sox this year. Even if it's for A ball prospects. The Sox need to have Dayan in RF everyday.

[Balta1701]

Trading Gavin for younger players wouldn't mean the sox are "out" for 2012. Depending on the deal, the sox could have players who could contribute now. And the other SP's--Peavy, Sale, Humber, Danks, Stewart/ Axelrod, et al--could pick up the slack left by Gavin.

I can't say this any more clearly.

 

Zach Stewart is not ready to be a starting pitcher in the big leagues in 2012.

 

If you put him there, it might be ok for his development, but it is not a path to a winning record.

[iamshack]

I can't say this any more clearly.

 

Zach Stewart is not ready to be a starting pitcher in the big leagues in 2012.

 

If you put him there, it might be ok for his development, but it is not a path to a winning record.

I'm just wondering who the hell you are that you can be so sure of this...the odds are probably with you that Zach needs more seasoning, but there is no way to be sure when the light might go on that makes things click for him and results in the consistency that is necessary for him to be successful.

 

I'm sure we could substitute Phillip Humber's name and 2011 in this post and you would have said the same thing last year.

[Balta1701]

I'm just wondering who the hell you are that you can be so sure of this...the odds are probably with you that Zach needs more seasoning, but there is no way to be sure when the light might go on that makes things click for him and results in the consistency that is necessary for him to be successful.

 

I'm sure we could substitute Phillip Humber's name and 2011 in this post and you would have said the same thing last year.

No I wouldn't have. I would have said "Counting on Philip Humber is a huge gamble. He might have had a good stretch to finish for the Royals, but you don't want him as your only 5th option." And you know what? I'd have been right. His arm had some skill in it but 4 years of bullpen work had left it not stretched out enough to endure a season. If we were counting on him, we needed a 6th starter.

 

Stewart not only has that issue, having been a starter for only 2 years, but he's also quite a bit younger, and his stuff simply wasn't ready for the big leagues. His offspeed stuff is simply not consistent enough, and his sinker didn't strike me as nearly as "Heavy" as it needs to be.

 

He has never started a season at AAA. You put him in the big leagues, people are going to hate him for 3 months as he struggles and tries to adapt to jumping over 2 levels. We've seen guys torn apart by that permanently. We've seen guys be given that chance but then not adapt mentally and wind up given away for nothing. The odds of that working are terrible.

[iamshack]

No I wouldn't have. I would have said "Counting on Philip Humber is a huge gamble. He might have had a good stretch to finish for the Royals, but you don't want him as your only 5th option." And you know what? I'd have been right. His arm had some skill in it but 4 years of bullpen work had left it not stretched out enough to endure a season. If we were counting on him, we needed a 6th starter.

 

Stewart not only has that issue, having been a starter for only 2 years, but he's also quite a bit younger, and his stuff simply wasn't ready for the big leagues. His offspeed stuff is simply not consistent enough, and his sinker didn't strike me as nearly as "Heavy" as it needs to be.

 

He has never started a season at AAA. You put him in the big leagues, people are going to hate him for 3 months as he struggles and tries to adapt to jumping over 2 levels. We've seen guys torn apart by that permanently. We've seen guys be given that chance but then not adapt mentally and wind up given away for nothing. The odds of that working are terrible.

Oh blah...his stuff is good enough, he just needs to show consistency. And while I agree with you that he could certainly struggle if we throw him into the fire to begin the season, you don't know his mental makeup, you don't know his capacity to handle adversity, etc.

 

Additionally, there are tons of guys who skip AAA altogether and do just fine. There are absolutely guys that have been rushed and have probably been set back or even had their careers ruined by it, but there have been plenty that did just fine.

 

You probably would have sent Johnny Danks back to Charlotte after struggling in 2007 with us because you were worried about him being "torn apart."

Edited December 26, 2011 by iamshack

[Balta1701]

You probably would have sent Johnny Danks back to Charlotte after struggling in 2007 with us because you were worried about him being "torn apart."

You just made my point for me though by comparing to 2007. We all saw exactly what happened that year. The end result of putting Danks in the rotation in 2007 was that he was much more ready for 2008. However...we had to entirely sacrifice 2007 to do so.

 

If we're willing to go into this season expecting 3rd place if we're lucky, then by all means, give Zach Stewart the 5th spot and see what he can do. Especially if you get a decent return for Floyd. Putting Zach Stewart in the rotation this year is doing exactly what we did in 2007...losing the year, but building for the future.

 

If we think we are still making moves to try to compete for 1st place, then Zach Stewart needs to start at AAA.

[iamshack]

You just made my point for me though by comparing to 2007. We all saw exactly what happened that year. The end result of putting Danks in the rotation in 2007 was that he was much more ready for 2008. However...we had to entirely sacrifice 2007 to do so.

 

If we're willing to go into this season expecting 3rd place if we're lucky, then by all means, give Zach Stewart the 5th spot and see what he can do. Especially if you get a decent return for Floyd. Putting Zach Stewart in the rotation this year is doing exactly what we did in 2007...losing the year, but building for the future.

 

If we think we are still making moves to try to compete for 1st place, then Zach Stewart needs to start at AAA.

How can you be sure that the learning experience Danks had between 07' and 08' can't occur this offseason for Stewart?