2011-12 White Sox off season catch all thread

[iamshack]

I won't have any problems with it either.

 

I just focus on the rest of the roster. There's very little reason to keep Quentin around if you're not looking to compete, for example; in fact it's counterproductive, since he continues blocking Viciedo. There's little reason to keep Ohman and Thornton around if you can get anything for them. IMO, you really have to try to give PK14 a chance to move, with his age and him being a 2013 FA again.

 

I just really dislike the 1/2 measure rebuilding, where you eat another year of Konerko, Quentin, and Thornton's contracts but you start off 7-8 WAR behind where we were last year with a pretty bad team.

Well, I'm trying to remain patient to see how it all plays out.

 

As of this moment, they've traded a closer for a SP prospect they really like, perhaps to ultimately replace the SP they just lost via free agency. Otherwise, the team remains the same.

 

They haven't engaged in any 1/2 measure rebuilding process, as much as that is what your perception may be.

[Balta1701]

The other "win now" move was bringing back a seemingly overpriced Frasor on a questionable deal that reeks of KW's penchant for proving himself right and justifying a past trade.

 

Now Danks' deal.

 

Curious, have these White Sox been, this offseason.

Yeah...that move followed by trading Floyd would be exceptionally odd.

[witesoxfan]

I didn't say you were less-qualified than I am.

 

I objected to your pompous "I cannot make this any more clear" bs.

 

Yes, you're probably correct that he needs more seasoning, but if you think you can suddenly predict things that MLB scouts can't predict, you need to take a step back and not be so condescending.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Man, looks like I missed some good s*** in here earlier. Too much Christmas egg nog spiked with rum.

[caulfield12]

Therein lies the problem. I really don't think that is the main focus of the organization right now, and I think the Santos trade proves it. "All in" teams don't trade their closer to put a prospect into the role. Obviously, they aren't going to trade Floyd for the sake of trading Floyd, but if a few guys they want become available for him, I doubt they would hesitate to trade him.

 

 

How does it prove it?

 

Maybe the front office really does believe Reed will be both better and cheaper in 2012.

 

It's not like we're trading Floyd and replacing him with Stewart/Axelrod or trading Thornton and replacing him in the 8th with Ohman/Santiago/FA/waiver wire.

 

Both of those moves would have obvious negative consequences for our ability to compete THIS year.

 

You can also make the obvious arguments that Quentin basically HAS TO GO and Viciedo needs to be given everyday playing time.

 

The only reason to keep Carlos is 1) you think you can compete better with him in 2012, 2) you can't get anything at all back in return and 3) there's a strong likelihood you believe that he will quickly be needed as additional depth to replace Rios and/or Dunn in the line-up offensively, playing the corners with Dayan, and DeAza in CF. Or sharing DH time with Dunn/Dayan.

 

Is that worth $6.5-7.25 million to JR and KW?

 

Guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

Edited December 27, 2011 by caulfield12

[gatnom]

How does it prove it?

 

Maybe the front office really does believe Reed will be both better and cheaper in 2012.

 

It's not like we're trading Floyd and replacing him with Stewart/Axelrod or trading Thornton and replacing him in the 8th with Ohman/Santiago/FA/waiver wire.

 

Both of those moves would have obvious negative consequences for our ability to compete THIS year.

 

You can also make the obvious arguments that Quentin basically HAS TO GO and Viciedo needs to be given everyday playing time.

 

The only reason to keep Carlos is 1) you think you can compete better with him in 2012, 2) you can't get anything at all back in return and 3) there's a strong likelihood you believe that he will quickly be needed as additional depth to replace Rios and/or Dunn in the line-up offensively, playing the corners with Dayan, and DeAza in CF. Or sharing DH time with Dunn/Dayan.

 

Is that worth $6.5-7.25 million to JR and KW?

 

Guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

All you had to do was non tender Frasor, and you would have a spot for Reed in the pen, which would mean a better bullpen from top to bottom for approximately the same price (I think actually less). This sends me a pretty clear message that there are priorities higher than fielding the best team this year. Once again, this doesn't exactly mean they are going to trade people away if they feel they are getting inadequate value.

 

Quentin is the only person I think they HAVE to trade at this point. We need to be able to see what both De Aza and Viciedo can do at the major league level this year.

 

 

[Balta1701]

All you had to do was non tender Frasor, and you would have a spot for Reed in the pen, which would mean a better bullpen from top to bottom for approximately the same price (I think actually less). This sends me a pretty clear message that there are priorities higher than fielding the best team this year. Once again, this doesn't exactly mean they are going to trade people away if they feel they are getting inadequate value.

 

Quentin is the only person I think they HAVE to trade at this point. We need to be able to see what both De Aza and Viciedo can do at the major league level this year.

Heck, moving Sale to the rotation opened a bullpen spot for Reed even if Frasor was retained.

[spiderman]

All you had to do was non tender Frasor, and you would have a spot for Reed in the pen, which would mean a better bullpen from top to bottom for approximately the same price (I think actually less). This sends me a pretty clear message that there are priorities higher than fielding the best team this year. Once again, this doesn't exactly mean they are going to trade people away if they feel they are getting inadequate value.

 

Quentin is the only person I think they HAVE to trade at this point. We need to be able to see what both De Aza and Viciedo can do at the major league level this year.

 

The White Sox though believe that starting pitcher is extremely important, and they couldn't pass on what they view as a future member of their starting rotation. Along with believing that Reed can fill the closer spot, these are obviously two risks than could hurt the club next season, although it could help the team in 2013 if Molina is able to secure a rotation spot.

 

I don't disagree with not tendering Frasor though. I still don't understand that move. Maybe they still move him, but I can't imagine he'd bring much in return, but it seems like a luxury for a team that claims to have payroll issues.

 

I still think both Quentin and Floyd are moved this off-season.

[Kalapse]

As has been rumored for some time Milledge signed with the Tokyo Yakult Swallows.

[beck72]

Tendering Frasor made sense. He's a very reliable bullpen arm. If not for the Sox. Then via trade. Teams are always looking for late inning help, esp. healthy guys with proven track records.

 

If Frasor is still with the sox, by the trading deadline, he'd likely be well sought after. My guess is both the Yanks and Red Sox would like to have an arm that's had success pitching in the AL east. If the Sox wanted to move him now, they'd likely have a decent prospect in return for him

[Balta1701]

Tendering Frasor made sense. He's a very reliable bullpen arm. If not for the Sox. Then via trade. Teams are always looking for late inning help, esp. healthy guys with proven track records.

 

If Frasor is still with the sox, by the trading deadline, he'd likely be well sought after. My guess is both the Yanks and Red Sox would like to have an arm that's had success pitching in the AL east. If the Sox wanted to move him now, they'd likely have a decent prospect in return for him

The problem right now is that the market for relievers is well below what Frasor is being paid. If the Yanks or Red Sox wanted a RH reliever, they could have signed one of equal/better quality to Frasor on the open market for less money.

[Chicago White Sox]

The problem with Frasor was picking up the option. There was just no reason to do so. We should have just offered him arbitration and then tried to negotiate 1 year deal at like $2.5 million. I'm guessing he would have accepted less to stay in Chicago since he's from here, but if not, he would not have gotten much more in arbitration after the year he had last year and the prices relievers have been going for this offseason. And while I think Frasor will be solid for us next year, if he rejected arbitration he could have been replaced fairly easily in free agency. Picking up that option never made sense to me.

[southsider2k5]

The problem with Frasor was picking up the option. There was just no reason to do so. We should have just offered him arbitration and then tried to negotiate 1 year deal at like $2.5 million. I'm guessing he would have accepted less to stay in Chicago since he's from here, but if not, he would not have gotten much more in arbitration after the year he had last year and the prices relievers have been going for this offseason. And while I think Frasor will be solid for us next year, if he rejected arbitration he could have been replaced fairly easily in free agency. Picking up that option never made sense to me.

 

Why would the guy take a paycut if he could go to arbitration and probably get a raise? At very least he would have gotten his last annual salary. There are plenty of comps out there he could have used in a hearing.

[SoxAce]

And while I think Frasor will be solid for us next year, if he rejected arbitration he could have been replaced fairly easily in free agency. Picking up that option never made sense to me.

 

He's a Chicago boy, so obviously we were looking out for him.

[Chicago White Sox]

Why would the guy take a paycut if he could go to arbitration and probably get a raise? At very least he would have gotten his last annual salary. There are plenty of comps out there he could have used in a hearing.

There is no way he would have gotten a raise. Frasor made $3.5 million last year, which is already on the high-end for an average right-handed setup man. He didn't have a great season in 2011 and is already 34 years old. IMO, the Sox would have had the upper hand in abritration. I honestly think a $3 million arbitration offer would have won if Frasor seeked a raise, so worst case scenario is he's back at $3.5. Best case scenario he's back at $3.0 million. Either way, it's cheaper than his $3.75 million option.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

There is no way he would have gotten a raise. Frasor made $3.5 million last year, which is already on the high-end for an average right-handed setup man. He didn't have a great season in 2011 and is already 34 years old. IMO, the Sox would have had the upper hand in abritration. I honestly think a $3 million arbitration offer would have won if Frasor seeked a raise, so worst case scenario is he's back at $3.5. Best case scenario he's back at $3.0 million. Either way, it's cheaper than his $3.75 million option.

 

$3 million would have been about a 15% paycut. I don't know that anyone has ever gotten a 15% paycut through salary arbitration. I don't ever remember anyone getting any kind of a paycut in arbitration.

 

Again, there are plenty of high paid relievers out there that Frasor's agent would be able to use as comps in an arbitration case. Age doesn't matter there.

[flavum]

100 days until Peavy beats Darvish.

 

[striker]

100 days until Peavy beats Darvish.

 

1 month until Soxfest

About 6 weeks until Pitchers/Catches report

[ScottyDo]

1 month until Soxfest

About 6 weeks until Pitchers/Catches report

That seems impossible. Time needs to slow the eff down!

[caulfield12]

$3 million would have been about a 15% paycut. I don't know that anyone has ever gotten a 15% paycut through salary arbitration. I don't ever remember anyone getting any kind of a paycut in arbitration.

 

Again, there are plenty of high paid relievers out there that Frasor's agent would be able to use as comps in an arbitration case. Age doesn't matter there.

 

Just look at all the money the likes of Dotel, Linebrink, Danys Baez, Adams, Jamie Walker, Mike MacDougal, David Aardsma, JP Howell, Farnsworth, etc., are getting or got in their 30's.

 

Thornton now, too.

 

Those pay cuts just don't happen based one so-so or sort of below the mean year...if the guy is off the charts atrociously bad, obviously no arbitration or contract is offered.

 

The only time KW hasn't kept the guy around (even Pena stuck 1 or even 2 years too long) after acquiring him (for pitchers) was David Riske.

 

 

[greg775]

That seems impossible. Time needs to slow the eff down!

 

That's amazing that ST is just around the corner.

Looks like Kenny is tinkering rather that totally rebuilding.

I'd have to say I'm in favor of it. On paper AGAIN we have a good pitching staff and with Dunn and Rios it seems silly to put all young guys around them.

Everybody needs to have a career year and get the Sox back in the playoffs.

[flavum]

1 month until Soxfest

About 6 weeks until Pitchers/Catches report

 

8 weeks. February 23.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

That's amazing that ST is just around the corner.

Looks like Kenny is tinkering rather that totally rebuilding.

I'd have to say I'm in favor of it. On paper AGAIN we have a good pitching staff and with Dunn and Rios it seems silly to put all young guys around them.

Everybody needs to have a career year and get the Sox back in the playoffs.

 

 

Greg, what solution do you have to the Dunn/Rios dilemma? Bench both of them for the entire season?

 

They're not building around Dunn and Rios anyway, they're building around the pitching staff (outside of Peavy/Thornton/Floyd) as well as Morel, Beckham, Viciedo, DeAza, Flowers, Lillibridge, etc.

 

Hopefully Mitchell or Walker emerge as a future leadoff hitter (CF/LF). Escobar and Martinez for the middle INF.

 

Marinez (from FLA) hasn't been mentioned often as a bullpen candidate very often, but he figures into that equation well...as he could allow Stewart/Axelrod/Santiago and Molina to get valuable "maturation" experience as a starter in the minors.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

A random excerpt of mine I thought I would share here. Thought about making it into a topic, but not really sure if anyone cares.

 

Anyway, I made a post on Jim Bowden's "10 best contracts in baseball" article about how Alexei Ramirez deserved a spot, certainly over Billy Butler, Yovani Gallardo, Ricky Romero, and Johnny Cueto. After doing some research on Alexei and his WAR value vs. his contract, it's amazing how valuable he has been for us....

 

"he has seen his WAR improve every single year in this league. It's reasonable to think he could eclipse the 5.0 WAR mark next year. He has already been one of the most cost-effective players since he joined the league in 2008. He has been paid $4.75M in his 4 season, and has put up 12.7 WAR, a value of $55M. He has been worth OVER 10X his contract!"

Edited December 29, 2011 by JoeCoolMan24

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Also, I don't know if "Cost per win" is a real stat, but I made it up to help my point about Alexei having a better contract than the 4 guys I mentioned above. Alexei's actual cost per win last year was about $242K per win, a RIDICULOUSLY low total when you consider a 4.9 WAR. Of those other 4 guys, they all had cost per win's of about $1.6-$2.5M, which is 7-10 times more expensive than Alexei was. Now I realize this "stat" would have it's flaws, like rookies who make only $400K, but put up a 2 WAR because then you could say must be more cost-effective than Alexei was. And it would be hard for someone like Albert Pujols to be considered as cost effective as other players because although he could put up a 10 WAR, he would be getting paid $25M, making his cost per win at $2.5M, which is not exactly great. But it's just something that would be interesting to consider without those outlier players.

Edited December 29, 2011 by JoeCoolMan24