2011-12 White Sox off season catch all thread

[LittleHurt05]

That's all his twitter is for. Trolling. He literally does nothing else with it.

 

During football season, it's nothing but Steelers >>>>> Bears, just to incite Chicagoans.

[elrockinMT]

I'm guessing most people you talked to have no perception of the value of a baseball player.

 

With regards to the scouting community, Carlos Quentin has exactly 1 good tool, and that is his power. If he hits .280, he can be a legit MVP candidate. But, as is usually the case, he will hit anywhere between .230-.250, his power numbers will suffer as a result, and he'll put up an .850 OPS at best, which is good before you consider his mediocre arm, bad defense, and oft-injured nature. On top of that, he's going to make anywhere probably $7 or $8 mill this year and then he's a free agent, so he either gets really expensive or he gets really injured, and the Sox end up with nothing either way.

 

I bet Viciedo has a better WAR than Quentin this year. I'm actually quite confident he will.

 

 

**For clarification purposes, Quentin was and still will be a player I enjoy to watch hit, especially when he is going good. I'm also not crazy about the trade. At the end of the day, it's hard to complain about it because you can't ask for much more than two live arms considering the total value of Quentin. They could have tried to deal him midseason, but it's just as likely that he gets hurt for a period of time and you are lucky to get 1 of those arms for him.

 

 

I think some of us do have an idea of the value of a baseball players and it isn't two so-so minor league pitchers for a player like CQ. The trade happened because the GM made some bad decisions and now needs to shed payroll by trading off the better players we have that will and were coring some salary money. We keep the mistakes, who are paid way to much, and continue to suffer. I understand you aren't crazy with the trade and I am certainly not. Reality though is it was done and it's over.

[southsider2k5]

During football season, it's nothing but Steelers >>>>> Bears, just to incite Chicagoans.

 

Add in every possible shot he can take at the Sox, and you have his twitter feed. Of course there really isn't much bad to be said about the Bulls, so he ignores them mostly. I doubt he is smart enough to even understand hockey.

[iamshack]

I think some of us do have an idea of the value of a baseball players and it isn't two so-so minor league pitchers for a player like CQ. The trade happened because the GM made some bad decisions and now needs to shed payroll by trading off the better players we have that will and were coring some salary money. We keep the mistakes, who are paid way to much, and continue to suffer. I understand you aren't crazy with the trade and I am certainly not. Reality though is it was done and it's over.

This is BS.

 

Let me ask you this: Do you try to at least READ any of the advanced statistics or advanced metrics and the monetary values they suggest for players? Because there is a large body of data that suggests that trading Quentin was the right thing to do, regardless of what our payroll would have been otherwise. Have you made an effort to learn any of these new performance valuation systems?

 

These are not rhetorical questions, either. I honestly am asking this of you and Greg, or anyone else that would like to reply.

[hogan873]

Royals fans I talk to are amazed at the Quentin trade. They see it as a real player dealt for 2 lousy prospects.

I don't know why you guys don't care to know the perception of the White Sox in Kansas City.

The Sox are currently seen as a joke. The Quentin trade is the latest head-scratcher. I had several people ask me if Sox fans were furious. I said, "Not the ones I know. They love the trade. They hate Quentin and love whenever we get guys with no track record. Our fans love the unknown."

They are AMAZED we gave Quentin away for nothing.

 

They asked me if I was upset at the trade. I said of course I was.

It would be easy to go along with other responses and say, "worst.post.ever.", but I'll point out the few things that make it a less than good post.

 

First, who cares what Royals fans think? And I really don't think the Sox are thought of as a joke in KC

 

Second, very few people on this board hate Quentin. Most I think like the guy but recognize that he's streaky and injury-prone.

 

Third, Quentin wasn't given away for nothing. Time will tell, but Castro is viewed as a decent prospect with a lot of potential. With one of the best pitching coaches in the league here and Castro's past success, I feel pretty good about it.

 

Finally, just an observation, as I haven't really said much about the Quentin trade yet. I like Quentin, but I was certain he was going to be traded. I think the return was adequate, and if Castro ends up being the guy he could be, the trade will look very nice...especially if (when) Carlos misses 30+ games this season with an injury or two or six.

[caulfield12]

Greg, how many Royals fans attend White Sox games in Chicago?

 

It's kind of irrelevant.

 

I'm sure Royals fans in 2004-05 thought the White Sox were crazy to get rid of Jose Valentin, Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez, too.

 

[Steve9347]

I believe "how the White Sox are perceived in Kansas City" is probably dead last in things I care about in this world.

 

Honestly, I care more about where the next "Real Housewives of" will be based than I do about the above, and I really, really, really don't care about the Real Housewives shows.

[elrockinMT]

This is BS.

 

Let me ask you this: Do you try to at least READ any of the advanced statistics or advanced metrics and the monetary values they suggest for players? Because there is a large body of data that suggests that trading Quentin was the right thing to do, regardless of what our payroll would have been otherwise. Have you made an effort to learn any of these new performance valuation systems?

 

These are not rhetorical questions, either. I honestly am asking this of you and Greg, or anyone else that would like to reply.

 

 

If you think my stance is "BS" as you label it my response to you is it takes a BS'er to know one. Stats can mean anything you want them to mean and can be used in anyway you want them to be used in an exchange when wanting to justify your position. I personally think that some of the problems we have seen develop with this team over the years has a lot to do with the failure to consider the intangibles that certain players have brought to this team. Team chemistry-leadership-experience, but I bet there aren't any C.L.E. WAR's and BAR's for those. Let me ask you what the advanced metrics said about Dunn? Peavy, et al? You are obviously a stat man when making decisions. Me not so much. This kind of stuff kind of reminds me some of Robert Mcnamara and his youthful group of brains back in the 60's. In 5 to 10 years from now what wil be the flavor of the month?

Edited January 4, 2012 by elrockinMT

[Balta1701]

If you think my stance is "BS" as you label it my response to you is it takes a BS'er to know one. Stats can mean anything you want them to mean and can be used in anyway you want them to be used in an exchange. I personally think that some of the problems we have seen develop with this team over the years has a lot to do with the failure to consider the intangibles that certain players have brought to this team. Team chemistry-leadership-experience, but I bet there aren't any C.L.E. WAR's and BAR's for those.

Great. So given the fact that the White Sox have severely underperformed for the past 3 years, when they've had a shot at the division all 3 years, and Carlos Quentin was on the team all 3 years, I judge that his intangibles were also hurting the team, and we're better off without him, using the logic of intangibles.

[elrockinMT]

Great. So given the fact that the White Sox have severely underperformed for the past 3 years, when they've had a shot at the division all 3 years, and Carlos Quentin was on the team all 3 years, I judge that his intangibles were also hurting the team, and we're better off without him, using the logic of intangibles.

 

 

So it was Carlos Quentin's fault? Maybe they competed because CQ was on the team? I think you might use the same argument to support Mark Buerhle being allowed to go, or maybe the trade of let's say PK? Bottom line is we were told if trades of players like CQ are made it will be for major league ready players. There are reports out there that these two are not really top prospects -0r at least not anymore. Maybe at one time, but not now. So if that is true then one must assume it was a salary dump to pay for Dunn, Peavy and Rios.

Edited January 4, 2012 by elrockinMT

[Milkman delivers]

Arguing with a wall, guys.

[Balta1701]

So it was Carlos Quentin's fault? Maybe they competed because CQ was on the team? I think you might use the same argument to support Mark Buerhle being allowed to go, or maybe the trade of let's say PK? Bottom line is we were told if trades of players like CQ are made it will be for major league ready players. There are reports out there that these two are not really top prospects -0r at least not anymore. Maybe at one time, but not now. So if that is true then one must assume it was a salary dump to pay for Dunn, Peavy and Rios.

I see, so your intangibles argument went out the window when someone pointed out that CQ's intangibles weren't enough to win the division the last 3 years.

[iamshack]

If you think my stance is "BS" as you label it my response to you is it takes a BS'er to know one. Stats can mean anything you want them to mean and can be used in anyway you want them to be used in an exchange when wanting to justify your position. I personally think that some of the problems we have seen develop with this team over the years has a lot to do with the failure to consider the intangibles that certain players have brought to this team. Team chemistry-leadership-experience, but I bet there aren't any C.L.E. WAR's and BAR's for those. Let me ask you what the advanced metrics said about Dunn? Peavy, et al? You are obviously a stat man when making decisions. Me not so much. This kind of stuff kind of reminds me some of Robert Mcnamara and his youthful group of brains back in the 60's. In 5 to 10 years from now what wil be the flavor of the month?

Thing is, I'm not really an advanced metrics devotee. I disagree with Kalapse, chw42, J4L, and others all the time. What I am is an information guy. I want all possible data and information I can possibly collect, and that includes statistics, intangibles, attitude, etc.

 

My question to you was more about the fact that you make statements that belie reality on a consistent basis. Your analysis is corrupted by emotion and loyalty rather than by what is best for the team. I very much appreciate your passion for the game and for the team, but that alone does not make you a "better" fan. While I do not wish to get into what makes one a "good" fan, one would think that the ability to accurately ascertain what decisions produce the most optimal or near-optimal outcomes would be valued highly.

 

All I ask is for you to devote a few hours to actually exploring some of the advanced metrics. Use google and find some websites which explain advanced statistics. Explore websites such as Fangraphs and Baseball-reference.com. Check out a payroll website like Cot's. I'm not saying you have to master anything or waste an entire weekend doing this...I myself am guilty of not knowing the new data and valuation systems well enough; but at least familiarize yourself with them a bit so you might understand where some of us are coming from?

[Chicago White Sox]

I think some of us do have an idea of the value of a baseball players and it isn't two so-so minor league pitchers for a player like CQ. The trade happened because the GM made some bad decisions and now needs to shed payroll by trading off the better players we have that will and were coring some salary money. We keep the mistakes, who are paid way to much, and continue to suffer. I understand you aren't crazy with the trade and I am certainly not. Reality though is it was done and it's over.

So you are saying KW purposely passed on significantly more value to make this particular trade? Because two "so-so minor league pitchers" is what KW got for Quentin as you said. If that isn't the true value of Quentin, then he must have passed on better trades right? That's what your saying?

 

The reasons KW dealt Quentin are irrelevant to his value. He's worth what is right now because of his current abilities and expected production, not what players like Dunn & Rios are being paid.

 

Your problem here has nothing to do with a lack of statistics, but simply not using basic logic to walk through the scenario. Quentin is worth very little due to his own doing and no one else's. Why is this so hard for you accept?

[Milkman delivers]

So you are saying KW purposely passed on significantly more value to make this particular trade? Because two "so-so minor league pitchers" is what KW got for Quentin as you said. If that isn't the true value of Quentin, then he must have passed on better trades right? That's what your saying?

 

The reasons KW dealt Quentin are irrelevant to his value. He's worth what is right now because of his current abilities and expected production, not what players like Dunn & Rios are being paid.

 

Your problem here has nothing to do with a lack of statistics, but simply not using basic logic to walk through the scenario. Quentin is worth very little due to his own doing and no one else's. Why is this so hard for you accept?

 

Ouch

[hogan873]

So you are saying KW purposely passed on significantly more value to make this particular trade? Because two "so-so minor league pitchers" is what KW got for Quentin as you said. If that isn't the true value of Quentin, then he must have passed on better trades right? That's what your saying?

 

The reasons KW dealt Quentin are irrelevant to his value. He's worth what is right now because of his current abilities and expected production, not what players like Dunn & Rios are being paid.

 

Your problem here has nothing to do with a lack of statistics, but simply not using basic logic to walk through the scenario. Quentin is worth very little due to his own doing and no one else's. Why is this so hard for you accept?

Wow. I agree with every word of this post. Especially your mentioning that the salaries of Dunn and Rios have nothing to do with what the Sox received for Quentin. We all saw/heard what KW said when he was talking about wanting only major league talent for some players. And I think many of us realized that it wouldn't happen for every player traded. Quentin's value isn't nearly as high as some think. He has been injury-prone and just came off surgery. Aside from 2008 (when he hurt himself, anyway), he's been inconsistent. When he's good, he's good, no denying that. But his flashes of good haven't been as frequent as we'd like. Moving Quentin accomplished one thing first...freed up some money. If Castro pans out, great, it makes the trade even better.

[Cali]

So the White Sox are considered a joke to fans of a team that's been 100% irrelevant in the baseball world for 25 years? Oh No!

[GreatScott82]

Is this the 2013 plan?

 

I was looking at the #'s and by the looks of things, payroll will be down to $65 million heading into 2013. That can give white sox management up to $35 million to spend 'wisely' on players if they choose to go for it next year. Will that happen? I'm not sure. But with so many players coming off payroll, this year and next year, we may be sitting pretty FINALLY next winter.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Is this the 2013 plan?

 

I was looking at the #'s and by the looks of things, payroll will be down to $65 million heading into 2013. That can give white sox management up to $35 million to spend 'wisely' on players if they choose to go for it next year. Will that happen? I'm not sure. But with so many players coming off payroll, this year and next year, we may be sitting pretty FINALLY next winter.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

Maybe 2012 will be Beckham's last chance to prove himself. If not, make a run for Free Agent Brandon Phillips. Michael Bourn, Shawn Marcum, and Zach Greinke will also be FA too.

[southsider2k5]

Is this the 2013 plan?

 

I was looking at the #'s and by the looks of things, payroll will be down to $65 million heading into 2013. That can give white sox management up to $35 million to spend 'wisely' on players if they choose to go for it next year. Will that happen? I'm not sure. But with so many players coming off payroll, this year and next year, we may be sitting pretty FINALLY next winter.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

That is without Peavy's buyout and Floyds $9.5 million option.

[bigruss]

Is this the 2013 plan?

 

I was looking at the #'s and by the looks of things, payroll will be down to $65 million heading into 2013. That can give white sox management up to $35 million to spend 'wisely' on players if they choose to go for it next year. Will that happen? I'm not sure. But with so many players coming off payroll, this year and next year, we may be sitting pretty FINALLY next winter.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

That's a bit of a mirage too, because that money is tied up in such few players, meaning if you plan on spending on FAs to shore up big holes than you are once again looking at a $100mm+ payroll.

[hogan873]

That is without Peavy's buyout and Floyds $9.5 million option.

Interesting thought here. If Floyd is not traded before this season is over and he has a Gavin-like year (solid, nothing spectacular), do the Sox look to re-sign him? What kid of money could he expect?

[knightni]

If Beckham fails, they'll give Lilli the job probably.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Interesting thought here. If Floyd is not traded before this season is over and he has a Gavin-like year (solid, nothing spectacular), do the Sox look to re-sign him? What kid of money could he expect?

 

That's what I was saying a few days ago. I don't think Gavin is someone we NEED to trade, and I would actually welcome resigning him or giving an extension.

 

Danks put up 15.5 WAR over his 4 FULL seasons with the Sox. Floyd put up a 14.9 WAR over the same time frame. While Floyd hasn't had a great season like Danks did in 2008, he has been more consistent and saw his peripherals spike up pretty good last year.

[Balta1701]

Interesting thought here. If Floyd is not traded before this season is over and he has a Gavin-like year (solid, nothing spectacular), do the Sox look to re-sign him? What kid of money could he expect?

Whether or not they resign him might not be up to him. It might depend a lot on what the other guys we jsut traded for do in the next year. If both Zach Stewart and Castro are knocking on the door of the rotation next year after good years in AAA, plus Axelrod and Sale have good years, then it starts seeming silly to hold onto him and block the other guys.