Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:52 PM) Point is, how can you entrust the rebuilding to the same front office who missed so badly on Dunn, Rios, and Peavy? Can't do it. And they also tolerated a manager who had clearly quit on them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 02:59 PM) And they also tolerated a manager who had clearly quit on them too. No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 04:02 PM) No. I see, so you didn't watch the games. No wonder you think KW only has 1 more year for evaluation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:05 PM) I see, so you didn't watch the games. No wonder you think KW only has 1 more year for evaluation. I'm surprised you didn't change the subject by bringing up Cowley. It's difficult to come up with a scenario where the Sox play bad and Williams keeps his job for 2013. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 04:10 PM) I'm surprised you didn't change the subject by bringing up Cowley. It's difficult to come up with a scenario where the Sox play bad and Williams keeps his job for 2013. Not at all. KW keeping his job for 2013 is already pretty clearly going to happen, probably 2014 as well. The evaluation for him already happened. Whatever he told the chairman going in to last season about the risks, the chairman decided he was the person to go with as the GM through this retooling, and thus he has every opportunity to see it through. Last year, the GM's job was to try to give the manager a chance to prove he still cared about staying in his job. The GM put together a roster that did that. This year, the GM's job is to start a retooling process to put the team in contention in a year or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:12 PM) Not at all. KW keeping his job for 2013 is already pretty clearly going to happen, probably 2014 as well. The evaluation for him already happened. Whatever he told the chairman going in to last season about the risks, the chairman decided he was the person to go with as the GM through this retooling, and thus he has every opportunity to see it through. Last year, the GM's job was to try to give the manager a chance to prove he still cared about staying in his job. The GM put together a roster that did that. This year, the GM's job is to start a retooling process to put the team in contention in a year or two. Chairman Reinsdorf benevolence only goes so far. If the White Sox do not contend in 2012 it is because the GM made bad talent decisions. He isn't going to entrust a rebuilding to that same GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 04:24 PM) Chairman Reinsdorf benevolence only goes so far. If the White Sox do not contend in 2012 it is because the GM made bad talent decisions. He isn't going to entrust a rebuilding to that same GM. Based on what evidence? My evidence that he's going to trust that GM is the fact that the GM currently still has the job despite trading away several players and cutting $25 million off the payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Cali @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 02:51 PM) There was a time I would write down when Pitchers & Catchers report on a Calendar. Now, I'd be damned if I know when they report. I just don't care this season and it BUMS. ME. OUT. February 23rd, FWIW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:24 PM) Chairman Reinsdorf benevolence only goes so far. If the White Sox do not contend in 2012 it is because the GM made bad talent decisions. He isn't going to entrust a rebuilding to that same GM. You've forgotten there's another out. Robin's inexperience as a manager. Cue the inevitable Hawk, "Robin's got one of the brightest baseball minds he's ever witnessed firsthand in his 63 years around the game, as soon as he really learns what he's doing and gets comfortable with his managerial duties, watch out AL Central!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I think we now need a thread for Marty/Balta arguments to go along with one for SS2k5/Balta arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 01:58 PM) Well, then you're still the only one. Setting high standards make it easier to call for his firing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 02:59 PM) And they also tolerated a manager who had clearly quit on them too. Which is the biggest reason why Kenny is getting more time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 06:29 PM) Setting high standards make it easier to call for his firing. Setting *any* standard would be met with your objection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:02 PM) No. Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 06:38 PM) Setting *any* standard would be met with your objection. I'm not avoiding common sense. Hence the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 07:38 PM) Setting *any* standard would be met with your objection. THis year? Correct. It is theoretically impossible to evaluate the White Sox's future based on where this year goes. That's why a GM has to be a 2-3 year commitment at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:12 PM) Not at all. KW keeping his job for 2013 is already pretty clearly going to happen, probably 2014 as well. The evaluation for him already happened. How do we have any idea what kind of conversations the White Sox FO has had in the last year? A whole range of possibilities could be on the table. KW could have an agreement where he moves on after another year. JR doesn't necessarily have to love Hahn and be in a hurry to shift the reins to him. LaRussa could want a year before getting an important position here. There are all kinds of possibilities. The story is JR chose KW over Ozzie, but we still had rumors last year that KW was wearing thin on JR as well and that they could both be out. Seeing as how it's a rebuilding year, it could very easily be JR deciding to postpone a decision on KW a year since stakes are low. Point being, we have no idea what's going on with them. All guesses are just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 07:48 PM) How do we have any idea what kind of conversations the White Sox FO has had in the last year? A whole range of possibilities could be on the table. KW could have an agreement where he moves on after another year. JR doesn't necessarily have to love Hahn and be in a hurry to shift the reins to him. LaRussa could want a year before getting an important position here. There are all kinds of possibilities. The story is JR chose KW over Ozzie, but we still had rumors last year that KW was wearing thin on JR as well and that they could both be out. Seeing as how it's a rebuilding year, it could very easily be JR deciding to postpone a decision on KW a year since stakes are low. Point being, we have no idea what's going on with them. All guesses are just that. If KW was likely to be removed after this year, then the Chairman just made a mistake almost as silly as keeping a manager who wanted to go to Florida. If you've got a team that needs to be rebuilt and you're about to hire a new GM, why on Earth would you let another GM start the work of rebuilding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 06:42 PM) THis year? Correct. It is theoretically impossible to evaluate the White Sox's future based on where this year goes. That's why a GM has to be a 2-3 year commitment at this point. The last thing I will say on this subject is to reiterate that if Dunn, Rios, and Peavy have bad years again there is no way Williams can be brought back as GM. You can't sell a rebuilding led by the same GM who mis-evaluated those three players by that big of a margin. If you think that's unfair so be it, but for the health of the franchise Williams would have to be let go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Unless the real GM target for JR is someone like LaRussa who says he's not quite ready for a full-time job just yet and wants a full year off as a "media commentator" or whatever other reasonable explanation they can come up with, such as spending time with his children and grandchildren, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 07:57 PM) The last thing I will say on this subject is to reiterate that if Dunn, Rios, and Peavy have bad years again there is no way Williams can be brought back as GM. You can't sell a rebuilding led by the same GM who mis-evaluated those three players by that big of a margin. If you think that's unfair so be it, but for the health of the franchise Williams would have to be let go. If you were firing him because of those 3 players, you fire him when those 3 players let you down in an "All in" season. The job from now is to get out of the hole that last year left us in, and that is a multi year commitment. Replacing the GM next year is like replacing a college coach after his first recruiting class. You have no idea how it will look in 3 years. We could win 60 games next year, then find out in 2 years that Sale, Molina, Danks, Castro, and Humber are the newest version of the early 2000's A's rotation, just destroying the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 07:57 PM) The last thing I will say on this subject is to reiterate that if Dunn, Rios, and Peavy have bad years again there is no way Williams can be brought back as GM. You can't sell a rebuilding led by the same GM who mis-evaluated those three players by that big of a margin. If you think that's unfair so be it, but for the health of the franchise Williams would have to be let go. Except the problem we keep coming back to is was it reasonable to assume that Dunn and Peavy were bad moves at the time that they were made? There's not enough evidence to support this argument. Rios, sure, there were warning signs and red flags all over the place. That one's definitely on Williams, as is the Wilder fiasco. If you really want to go after Williams, it should be misfires like Teahen, Hudson/Holmberg for Jackson and then the two bad Nick Swisher deals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 07:58 PM) Unless the real GM target for JR is someone like LaRussa who says he's not quite ready for a full-time job just yet and wants a full year off as a "media commentator" or whatever other reasonable explanation they can come up with, such as spending time with his children and grandchildren, etc. Then LaRussa is stuck with a bunch of players that KW picked up that he wouldn't have wanted. That's nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 08:00 PM) Rios, sure, there were warning signs and red flags all over the place. That one's definitely on Williams, as is the Wilder fiasco. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/riosal01.shtml Show me the "warning signs" on Rios offensively. Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards 2005 24 TOR AL 146 519 481 71 126 23 6 10 59 14 9 28 101 .262 .306 .397 .703 84 191 14 5 0 5 1 * 2006 25 TOR AL 128 498 450 68 136 33 6 17 82 15 6 35 89 .302 .349 .516 .865 121 232 10 3 0 10 1 * AS 2007 26 TOR AL 161 711 643 114 191 43 7 24 85 17 4 55 103 .297 .354 .498 .852 122 320 9 6 0 7 3 * AS 2008 27 TOR AL 155 686 635 91 185 47 8 15 79 32 8 44 112 .291 .337 .461 .798 112 293 20 2 0 5 2 * 2009 28 TOR AL 108 479 436 52 115 25 2 14 62 19 3 31 78 .264 .317 .427 .744 94 186 14 6 0 6 1 9/8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Well, since we have ZERO tradition of paying top-tier GM salaries, I'll believe it when I see it with LaRussa. Would rather have Hahn, ceteris paribus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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