2011-12 White Sox off season catch all thread

[Balta1701]

Good luck to Robin in trying to convince Peavy to come out of a game.

Good luck to Robin in dealing with AJP as well if he decides to play Flowers a lot.

Good luck to Robin dealing with Rios and Dunn if he decides to "rest them" a lot.

If Jake Peavy falls apart in the 5th inning in 5 straight starts again, and Robin Ventura doesn't have the cojones to have someone getting ready in the bullpen to start the 5th in the next game to take him out if trouble starts, then Robin Ventura is a wimp, Robin Ventura needs to resign or be fired, the person who hired Robin Ventura needs to be fired, and then Robin Ventura needs to be forced to fight Nolan Ryan as punishment for that awful of managing.

 

I think tarring and feathering would be an appropriate response to Guillen never having anyone up in the 5th to back Peavy up.

[MEANS]

Good luck to Robin in trying to convince Peavy to come out of a game.

Good luck to Robin in dealing with AJP as well if he decides to play Flowers a lot.

Good luck to Robin dealing with Rios and Dunn if he decides to "rest them" a lot.

 

Whether you guys believe it or not, Ozzie was an easy manager to play for and a good manager. Good luck to Robin in dealing with the egos of these millionaires.

There's a chance Robin could have some problems in the clubhouse with our veterans. If Robin is a natural as a manager, great.

 

 

Greg, We get it already...Ozzie is the best manager EVER, and Robin is the worst manager EVER....let it go

[Marty34]

Good luck to Robin in trying to convince Peavy to come out of a game.

Good luck to Robin in dealing with AJP as well if he decides to play Flowers a lot.

Good luck to Robin dealing with Rios and Dunn if he decides to "rest them" a lot.

 

Whether you guys believe it or not, Ozzie was an easy manager to play for and a good manager. Good luck to Robin in dealing with the egos of these millionaires.

There's a chance Robin could have some problems in the clubhouse with our veterans. If Robin is a natural as a manager, great.

 

I doubt Ventura has one problem in the clubhouse. The players know Chairman Reinsdorf isn't going to let him go under any circumstance.

[elrockinMT]

If Jake Peavy falls apart in the 5th inning in 5 straight starts again, and Robin Ventura doesn't have the cojones to have someone getting ready in the bullpen to start the 5th in the next game to take him out if trouble starts, then Robin Ventura is a wimp, Robin Ventura needs to resign or be fired, the person who hired Robin Ventura needs to be fired, and then Robin Ventura needs to be forced to fight Nolan Ryan as punishment for that awful of managing.

 

I think tarring and feathering would be an appropriate response to Guillen never having anyone up in the 5th to back Peavy up.

 

 

I see your point and others too, but really when you win you're a genius and when you struggle then it's all the stupid decisions that manager made regardless of whether it was Ozzie or someone else. I personally think that the L/R response and taking out a starter, or even a releif pitcher, at the right time can be argued as either letting the guy battle and work his way out of jam or the manager blew the chance and the pitcher just gave up a big homer or something. Again if it works you are smart and if it doesn't then you have no business being a manager on this team (insert team name here). Bottiom line is Ozzie is gone so case closed.

Edited February 22, 2012 by elrockinMT

[elrockinMT]

I doubt Ventura has one problem in the clubhouse. The players know Chairman Reinsdorf isn't going to let him go under any circumstance.

 

 

He is just getting started so why would he be let go?

[LittleHurt05]

I see your point and others too, but really when you win you're a genius and when you struggle then it's all the stupid decisions that manager made regardless of whether it was Ozzie or someone else. I personally think that the L/R response and taking out a starter, or even a releif pitcher, at the right time can be argued as either letting the guy battle and work his way out of jam or the manager blew the chance and the pitcher just gave up a big homer or something. Again if it works you are smart and if it doesn't then you have no business being a manager on this team (insert team name here). Bottiom line is Ozzie is gone so case closed.

 

But when it came to Jake Peavy last year, it was so obvious to everyone but Ozzie. Once Jake hit 75 pitches, opponents averages skyrockted. People would call it all the time, "Jake is about to get rocked". Lo and behold, Ozzie would keep him in, and Jake would give up runs.

[greg775]

If Jake Peavy falls apart in the 5th inning in 5 straight starts again, and Robin Ventura doesn't have the cojones to have someone getting ready in the bullpen to start the 5th in the next game to take him out if trouble starts, then Robin Ventura is a wimp, Robin Ventura needs to resign or be fired, the person who hired Robin Ventura needs to be fired, and then Robin Ventura needs to be forced to fight Nolan Ryan as punishment for that awful of managing.

 

I think tarring and feathering would be an appropriate response to Guillen never having anyone up in the 5th to back Peavy up.

 

 

Greg, We get it already...Ozzie is the best manager EVER, and Robin is the worst manager EVER....let it go

 

 

I see your point and others too, but really when you win you're a genius and when you struggle then it's all the stupid decisions that manager made regardless of whether it was Ozzie or someone else. I personally think that the L/R response and taking out a starter, or even a releif pitcher, at the right time can be argued as either letting the guy battle and work his way out of jam or the manager blew the chance and the pitcher just gave up a big homer or something. Again if it works you are smart and if it doesn't then you have no business being a manager on this team (insert team name here). Bottiom line is Ozzie is gone so case closed.

 

1.) In the games I watched that Peavy pitched, he does not want to come out of games. Robin better just send Coop out there to deal with the situation. The way Coop allegedly crawled to Kenny last year to save his own hide makes me wonder if Coop has the guts.

2.) I have nothing against Robin. Why is it so hard to accept that I am going to prolly respond to posts that call Ozzie out?? You are the guys bringing up Ozzie. If I respond to such posts what makes that so hard to understand?

3.) Amen. It should be interesting to see how the fans on here react whenever we lose, because I guarantee you, if it's a 1-3 run loss, there will be tons of things to pin on Robin.

Edited February 22, 2012 by greg775

[bigruss]

1.) In the games I watched that Peavy pitched, he does not want to come out of games. Robin better just send Coop out there to deal with the situation. The way Coop allegedly crawled to Kenny last year to save his own hide makes me wonder if Coop has the guts.

 

3.) Amen. It should be interesting to see how the fans on here react whenever we lose, because I guarantee you, if it's a 1-3 run loss, there will be tons of things to pin on Robin.

1) So you're saying Ozzie didn't have the balls to pull Peavy even though everyone knew Peavy was about to get lit up? Hmm...

 

3) Isn't this exactly what happened to Ozzie!? He lost a bunch of games and people (everyone but you) questioned his in game strategy.

[Kyyle23]

1.) In the games I watched that Peavy pitched, he does not want to come out of games. Robin better just send Coop out there to deal with the situation. The way Coop allegedly crawled to Kenny last year to save his own hide makes me wonder if Coop has the guts.

2.) I have nothing against Robin. Why is it so hard to accept that I am going to prolly respond to posts that call Ozzie out?? You are the guys bringing up Ozzie. If I respond to such posts what makes that so hard to understand?

3.) Amen. It should be interesting to see how the fans on here react whenever we lose, because I guarantee you, if it's a 1-3 run loss, there will be tons of things to pin on Robin.

 

1) So, Ozzie demands a contract extension through the media, and then goes over Kennys head to Reinsdorf to discuss a contract extension and this is ok, but Cooper sees the ship around him sinking and does the same thing, without saying a word of it to the media, and Cooper is the gutless one here?

 

2) Why did you appoint yourself the Great(allegedly) Ozzie defender? Being the Man-God that you have told us all he is, he is more than capable of defending himself against us lowly messageboard "haters"

 

3). You are absolutely right. Robin will make mistakes, soxtalk will call them out and b**** about them. What soxtalk and the majority of the fanbase wants, is Robin to learn from those mistakes and attempt to correct them, not repeat them over and over. And especially not repeat them over and over to spite his GM.

[greg775]

1) So you're saying Ozzie didn't have the balls to pull Peavy even though everyone knew Peavy was about to get lit up? Hmm...

 

3) Isn't this exactly what happened to Ozzie!? He lost a bunch of games and people (everyone but you) questioned his in game strategy.

 

1.) If you want to word it that way, sure. I'd prefer to word it that a lot of managers hesitate to take out the veteran bulldog pitcher when said pitcher makes it clear with visual signs he ain't coming out. If Peavy is healthy, I"m sure we'll be discussing him leaving him in too long this season. Please please remember this topic.

3.) Yes it happens to all managers who lose. You can blame the manager pretty much every 'L.'

Edited February 22, 2012 by greg775

[greg775]

1) So, Ozzie demands a contract extension through the media, and then goes over Kennys head to Reinsdorf to discuss a contract extension and this is ok, but Cooper sees the ship around him sinking and does the same thing, without saying a word of it to the media, and Cooper is the gutless one here?

 

2) Why did you appoint yourself the Great(allegedly) Ozzie defender? Being the Man-God that you have told us all he is, he is more than capable of defending himself against us lowly messageboard "haters"

 

3). You are absolutely right. Robin will make mistakes, soxtalk will call them out and b**** about them. What soxtalk and the majority of the fanbase wants, is Robin to learn from those mistakes and attempt to correct them, not repeat them over and over. And especially not repeat them over and over to spite his GM.

 

1.) The story I read had Cooper going to Kenny way earlier than the Oz thing blew up. I thought Cooper came across very creepy in that story I read, kind of like the snitch character in the Longest Yard.

2.) I don't know. I get mad when my favorites get criticized in a way I see that is unfair. I've stood up for others who have drawn the wrath on here, like Dye, Wise, CQ, Garland, Pierre, Jenks.

3.) The Oz-KW thing wasn't going to work any longer obviously. I happen to blame KW as much or more than Oz though.

Edited February 22, 2012 by greg775

[elrockinMT]

1.) The story I read had Cooper going to Kenny way earlier than the Oz thing blew up. I thought Cooper came across very creepy in that story I read, kind of like the snitch character in the Longest Yard.

2.) I don't know. I get mad when my favorites get criticized in a way I see that is unfair. I've stood up for others who have drawn the wrath on here, like Dye, Wise, CQ, Garland, Pierre, Jenks.

3.) The Oz-KW thing wasn't going to work any longer obviously. I happen to blame KW as much or more than Oz though.

 

 

I don't think I would argue with you on your take of things. It is your opinion and I don't like it when my favorite players get picked on either and you named some. I don';t think the Ozzie and KW thing was working and probably stopped in 2010. One more year was a mistake. But, I blame both KW and Ozzie for it. They just react differently when things are going badly.

 

But, the story is one I am not sure about. It came for Joe C and may or may not have been written with fairness in mind. I just wasn't sure how to take that article about Cooper going to the boss.

[Balta1701]

1.) In the games I watched that Peavy pitched, he does not want to come out of games.

I cannot say this clearly enough.

 

Ozzie should not have cared.

 

He should have had a reliever warming in teh 5th every game Peavy pitched after July 1, because the trend was too obvious. If Peavy then got in trouble, you use up the first visit, ask if he's ok, then give him one more batter, and pull him once he gives up the run.

 

Instead, we got killed, repeatedly. Humber was the same deal.

[bigruss]

1.) If you want to word it that way, sure. I'd prefer to word it that a lot of managers hesitate to take out the veteran bulldog pitcher when said pitcher makes it clear with visual signs he ain't coming out. If Peavy is healthy, I"m sure we'll be discussing him leaving him in too long this season. Please please remember this topic.

3.) Yes it happens to all managers who lose. You can blame the manager pretty much every 'L.'

1) Peavy wasn't healthy though, he was coming off major surgery and needed time to build strength, and that should not be done while in game, have him throw his 75 pitches then go to the bullpen afterwards if he can't succeed at that point.

 

At that point Peavy wasn't a bulldog, he had the mindset of one maybe, but not the physical ability. If Ozzie couldn't see that then he deserved to lose the game.

 

3) Yet you give Ozzie a free pass.

[southsider2k5]

I doubt Ventura has one problem in the clubhouse. The players know Chairman Reinsdorf isn't going to let him go under any circumstance.

 

Ozzie used to think the same thing. Oh wait, he quit.

[Dick Allen]

1.) The story I read had Cooper going to Kenny way earlier than the Oz thing blew up. I thought Cooper came across very creepy in that story I read, kind of like the snitch character in the Longest Yard.

2.) I don't know. I get mad when my favorites get criticized in a way I see that is unfair. I've stood up for others who have drawn the wrath on here, like Dye, Wise, CQ, Garland, Pierre, Jenks.

3.) The Oz-KW thing wasn't going to work any longer obviously. I happen to blame KW as much or more than Oz though.

Cooper was in the last year of his contract, something your boy Ozzie wouldn't ever get to and Ozzie is openly negotiating with the Marlins. What is Cooper supposed to do?

 

I agree KW needs to go, but I blame him and Ozzie about 50/50

[JorgeFabregas]

According to nearly everyone, Cooper made the pitching decisions. He presumably left Peavy in games to build up his arm, which was ultimately the right choice for a team that was going nowhere.

[Balta1701]

According to nearly everyone, Cooper made the pitching decisions. He presumably left Peavy in games to build up his arm, which was ultimately the right choice for a team that was going nowhere.

This team was not "going nowhere" in June/July, they were still hanging around .500.

[bigruss]

According to nearly everyone, Cooper made the pitching decisions. He presumably left Peavy in games to build up his arm, which was ultimately the right choice for a team that was going nowhere.

The right choice was pulling Peavy when he started losing it, and put him in the bullpen for extra pitches.

[JorgeFabregas]

The right choice was pulling Peavy when he started losing it, and put him in the bullpen for extra pitches.

That would work. But does it really put the same kind of pressure on the arm?

[JorgeFabregas]

This team was not "going nowhere" in June/July, they were still hanging around .500.

Thus "ultimately."

[witesoxfan]

Greg, you are on my ignore list for a reason. Unfortunately, I have to read through your drivel because other people continue to respond to your nonsense. This bothers me.

 

You have a crush on Ozzie Guillen. Not a "I want to make sweet-sweet love to Ozzie Guillen" crush, but more a "I want to talk sweet-sweet things to Ozzie Guillen" sort of crush. You're a prude. You'll do everything but f*** him. Hell, you'll even let him get to 3rd base...Lord knows the dude never hit a homer.

 

But here you glorify him in absolute irrationality. The White Sox were awful this past year. They were good the year before, but how much of that had to do with Kenny Williams trading for Edwin Jackson at the deadline (if you believe either baseballreference or FGs...and you're not left with much beyond that...it was worth 2 WINS), which seems like quite little until you REALIZE THAT OZZIE GUILLEN SINGLE HANDEDLY BLEW TWO GAMES AGAINST THE MINNESOTA TWINS DUE TO SIMPLE BULLPEN MANAGEMENT. Oh hmmmmmm, my closer has struggled this year, LET ME LEAVE HIM IN WHILE HE'S GETTING HIS ASS KICKED ON THE ROAD AGAINST THE TEAM THAT HAS BEAT THE HOLY s*** OUT OF US THE PAST FEW YEARS. Hmm, Matt Thornton has pitched well, including the 2 innings he's pitched this game, YES LET'S THROW HIM OUT THERE FOR A 3RD INNING NO MATTER THAT HE'S FACING A GREAT FASTBALL HITTER IN JIM THOME WHO CAN END IT IN ONE SWING OF THE BAT.

 

I could find countless others.

 

Ozzie Guillen's main positive quality was placing blame on himself and not the players. By the end of his tenure, not only was he tired of placing the blame on himself, he was passing it off to the fans

 

"They only remember the 2005 team (that won the World Series) in 2020 when we come here in a wheelchair," Guillen said. " 'Oh, yeah, thank you.' As soon as you leave the ballpark, they don't care about you anymore. The monuments, the statues they have for you, they (urinate) on it when they are drunk. 'Thank you for coming' for 30 minutes for all the suffering you did all your life, day in and day out." - reportedly Ozzie Guillen*

 

*I totally feel like Fox News/MSNBC focusing on one side of the story...it is exhilarating.

 

Whether it's 100% true or not, Ozzie was definitely tired of his time in Chicago. He was and is the Latino Mike Ditka. He will get his players fired up, but his focus on one stupid area will cost him severely, and he will never again achieve the type of success he did 20 years after Ditka did with the Bears.

 

Ozzie Guillen was a terrible manager for this team and any beyond, and Greg, if you refuse to admit, if you continue to believe that Ozzie Guillen is second to the Dalai Lama, then you will never understand baseball or the intricacies that are involved in it. Instead, you will simply follow the manager's word, and 7 years from now, you will be pissed off that Rick Hahn is letting go of Robin Ventura (or Tony Phillips or Joe McEwing or Jose Canseco or Ty Cobb) and you'll argue it to the death.

 

Seriously. Stop. Ozzie was and IS NOT THAT GOOD.

[hogan873]

Pretty soon it will time to start the thread predicting each player's performance for the year. A return to career norms for Dunn and Rios could make this an interesting season. Especially if the pitching holds its own.

[southsider2k5]

This team was not "going nowhere" in June/July, they were still hanging around .500.

 

That isn't what this site felt at all...

[southsider2k5]

That would work. But does it really put the same kind of pressure on the arm?

 

I'm guessing with the fact that it isn't done, it doesn't really work.