All Managers are the Same

[Milkman delivers]

I still say that winning percentage of Ozzie's isn't half bad for a guy learning on the job. Isn't a win percentage over .500 pretty decent for any skipper who has been in a place a while?

Do you dispute the fact he is only going to get better?

Why did we train him in Chicago to go kick ass the next 20 years of his career somewhere else?

Now we in all likelihood bring in a rookie like Sandy/Martinez who is gonna make a big batch of mistakes as he learns how to manage.

I realize we agree to disagree.

But by the end of this year's playoffs you are going to likely have a new set of managing "bums" who teams want to run out of town.

If the Phillies don't win this series? Look out. Manuel will be a bum.

If the Rangers don't win ... ouch.

Leyland has been ripped in the past for not winning with talent.

The Yankees? If they lose??? Ouch again. Girardi will be blasted.

 

[BigSqwert]

See my earlier response in this thread. Greg is a walking contradiction. Managers don't matter because it's up to the players to perform. Also, the Marlins will kick ass and win titles because Ozzie Guillen is their manager.

[chw42]

I still say that winning percentage of Ozzie's isn't half bad for a guy learning on the job. Isn't a win percentage over .500 pretty decent for any skipper who has been in a place a while?

Do you dispute the fact he is only going to get better?

Why did we train him in Chicago to go kick ass the next 20 years of his career somewhere else?

Now we in all likelihood bring in a rookie like Sandy/Martinez who is gonna make a big batch of mistakes as he learns how to manage.

I realize we agree to disagree.

But by the end of this year's playoffs you are going to likely have a new set of managing "bums" who teams want to run out of town.

If the Phillies don't win this series? Look out. Manuel will be a bum.

If the Rangers don't win ... ouch.

Leyland has been ripped in the past for not winning with talent.

The Yankees? If they lose??? Ouch again. Girardi will be blasted.

 

I will not blast our new manager as he goes along BTW.

I wish him well as I truly believe players for the most part win games.

I do hope he realizes that if he doesn't get them to learn how to bunt in preseason, then the bunt is a worthless weapon in games.

If the team doesn't show the ability to steal a base in preseason, don't run in games.

 

That would mean Jerry Manual wasn't a bad manager. After all, he had to go through growing pains (first time manager when he first signed on with the Sox) as well and was over .500 as a Sox manager.

 

Ozzie Guillen is not a player, he's a manager. Yes, managers learn and they evolve, but Ozzie's too thickheaded to let anything influence his gut. So no, there's no guarantee he becomes a better manager anytime soon.

 

The White Sox didn't train Ozzie as a manager. He was a manager here from the start, if anything he learned under McKeon and the guys on the Marlins staff. Plus, why is it so important to have guys who used to play here as managers? Who the hell cares? Just be a good manager, I don't care if they played with the Yankees their entire career.

 

How do you know they will make mistakes? I'm willing to bet those guys are better in-game managers than Ozzie already. It's dealing with the players that new managers need to get a hang of and it appears Martinez does that quite well. I don't know about Alomar.

 

Why should Manuel get fired if the Phillies don't win the WS? Sure, that would come short of their expectations, but that team's won 5 consecutive NL East titles and they've gone to at least the NLCS for the past 3 seasons. If the Sox were doing that, Ozzie would still be here. And why should Washington get fired? That team got to the WS last year and they won 96 games this year. Managers don't get blasted unless they make some horrible moves. Perhaps letting Lee pitch in the 7th in game 2 was a bad move by Manuel, I thought Lee should have been taken out given his pitch count and his ineffectiveness in previous innings, but if the Phillies lose to the Cards these next two games, Manuel isn't really responsible for it unless he makes more bad moves, moves that are even worse than that.

 

Sometimes, managers make bad moves that have a positive influence on the game. Then there's the other time where a manager makes a move so bad that it is bound to fail, like hitting Adam Dunn against a lefty in the late innings or letting Adam Dunn pinch hit in the late innings period. Ozzie did that a couple of times this year and it was obviously the wrong move. Not only because it was against the odds, but that it was so against the odds that it was bound to fail badly. People have said this before: one bad move isn't going to turn the fans on you, a lot of bad moves will. Ozzie's done exactly that, as most of this board thinks. The issue with your opinion is that it is in the extreme minority on this board (which is not indicative of every Sox fan, but do realize that this board is filled with very knowledgeable hard core fans). If everyone else thinks differently, you might want to think about why. We didn't all hate Ozzie from the start. I didn't really mind him until 2010 rolled around.

 

And I definitely agree that the players decide the game. That's a given, but the manager puts the players on the field and if that includes giving Adam Dunn and Alex Rios the majority of plate appearances instead of Viciedo or De Aza, then the manager is costing the team a lot more than you think.

 

 

 

 

[Quin]

I still say that winning percentage of Ozzie's isn't half bad for a guy learning on the job.

 

Yeah, in 2004 and 2005 he was fantastic while learning on the job.

 

The problem is the next six years of mediocrity after he learned it.

 

So if anything, he has a downward trend and the Marlins will get four straight #1 overall picks.

[greg775]

That would mean Jerry Manual wasn't a bad manager. After all, he had to go through growing pains (first time manager when he first signed on with the Sox) as well and was over .500 as a Sox manager.

 

Ozzie Guillen is not a player, he's a manager. Yes, managers learn and they evolve, but Ozzie's too thickheaded to let anything influence his gut. So no, there's no guarantee he becomes a better manager anytime soon.

 

The White Sox didn't train Ozzie as a manager. He was a manager here from the start, if anything he learned under McKeon and the guys on the Marlins staff. Plus, why is it so important to have guys who used to play here as managers? Who the hell cares? Just be a good manager, I don't care if they played with the Yankees their entire career.

 

How do you know they will make mistakes? I'm willing to bet those guys are better in-game managers than Ozzie already. It's dealing with the players that new managers need to get a hang of and it appears Martinez does that quite well. I don't know about Alomar.

 

Why should Manuel get fired if the Phillies don't win the WS? Sure, that would come short of their expectations, but that team's won 5 consecutive NL East titles and they've gone to at least the NLCS for the past 3 seasons. If the Sox were doing that, Ozzie would still be here. And why should Washington get fired? That team got to the WS last year and they won 96 games this year. Managers don't get blasted unless they make some horrible moves. Perhaps letting Lee pitch in the 7th in game 2 was a bad move by Manuel, I thought Lee should have been taken out given his pitch count and his ineffectiveness in previous innings, but if the Phillies lose to the Cards these next two games, Manuel isn't really responsible for it unless he makes more bad moves, moves that are even worse than that.

 

Sometimes, managers make bad moves that have a positive influence on the game. Then there's the other time where a manager makes a move so bad that it is bound to fail, like hitting Adam Dunn against a lefty in the late innings or letting Adam Dunn pinch hit in the late innings period. Ozzie did that a couple of times this year and it was obviously the wrong move. Not only because it was against the odds, but that it was so against the odds that it was bound to fail badly. People have said this before: one bad move isn't going to turn the fans on you, a lot of bad moves will. Ozzie's done exactly that, as most of this board thinks. The issue with your opinion is that it is in the extreme minority on this board (which is not indicative of every Sox fan, but do realize that this board is filled with very knowledgeable hard core fans). If everyone else thinks differently, you might want to think about why. We didn't all hate Ozzie from the start. I didn't really mind him until 2010 rolled around.

 

And I definitely agree that the players decide the game. That's a given, but the manager puts the players on the field and if that includes giving Adam Dunn and Alex Rios the majority of plate appearances instead of Viciedo or De Aza, then the manager is costing the team a lot more than you think.

 

I appreciate the long post.

I disagree with some of it, but I don't think you or anybody else wants me to reiterate my position on Ozzie. It's more of the same. If u have a specific question I'll respond.

I mainly get a kick out of the postseason cause normally the games are close and when a team loses, the team's fans can squarely point at some managerial decisions. I laugh cause I hear it all year about Ozzie's decisions, but now that everybody's watching these games, I get to FINALLY hear people bag on managers not named Ozzie.

Lots of bad decisions cause when u lose a game you can always second guess the manager.

Edited October 4, 2011 by greg775

[Steve9347]

Take notice, Ozzie haters.

[Iwritecode]

I laugh cause I hear it all year about Ozzie's decisions, but now that everybody's watching these games, I get to FINALLY hear people bag on managers not named Ozzie.

 

Pretty much every team in MLB has a message board somewhere. Check them out sometime and you'll see that all the teams have fans that complain about their manager.

 

I'm sure you could find lots of Twins and Red Sox fans that think their managers are the worst ever.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Pretty much every team in MLB has a message board somewhere. Check them out sometime and you'll see that all the teams have fans that complain about their manager.

 

I'm sure you could find lots of Twins and Red Sox fans that think their managers are the worst ever.

 

See, greg hasn't polled anybody in Minnesota or Boston. But he's polled many in KC. And the verdict was: Ozzie is a great manager.

[chw42]

I appreciate the long post.

I disagree with some of it, but I don't think you or anybody else wants me to reiterate my position on Ozzie. It's more of the same. If u have a specific question I'll respond.

I mainly get a kick out of the postseason cause normally the games are close and when a team loses, the team's fans can squarely point at some managerial decisions. I laugh cause I hear it all year about Ozzie's decisions, but now that everybody's watching these games, I get to FINALLY hear people bag on managers not named Ozzie.

Lots of bad decisions cause when u lose a game you can always second guess the manager.

 

I rarely second guess Ozzie. I usually make my mind up about things before the fact and I'm sure a lot of the posters on this board do as well. If Ozzie brings in Will Ohman to face 3 right handers I know that's going to be a bad move. Even if it works out this time, the probability of it working out the next time is relatively low.

 

And I don't think anybody was "bagging" on Manuel for not taking Lee out. My roommate is a die hard Phillies fan and he blamed Lee more for sucking, which he kind of did.

[kitekrazy]

Gammons:Coaches sure make a difference

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...sp&c_id=mlb

[greg775]

I rarely second guess Ozzie. I usually make my mind up about things before the fact and I'm sure a lot of the posters on this board do as well. If Ozzie brings in Will Ohman to face 3 right handers I know that's going to be a bad move. Even if it works out this time, the probability of it working out the next time is relatively low.

 

And I don't think anybody was "bagging" on Manuel for not taking Lee out. My roommate is a die hard Phillies fan and he blamed Lee more for sucking, which he kind of did.

 

I know on Baseball Tonite they were ripping Manuel for not walking Pujols. They had no problem with leaving Lee in, just walking Albert with a man on third and first base open.

[witesoxfan]

I know on Baseball Tonite they were ripping Manuel for not walking Pujols. They had no problem with leaving Lee in, just walking Albert with a man on third and first base open.

 

Because it was a stupid decision. Managers f*** up. Some f*** up more than others. Ozzie is in that latter group.

[greg775]

Add LaRussa to the group.

They were blasting him tonight for having his pitcher bat late with 2 men on base in a scoreless game or whatever the score was.

Cardinals lose and skipper gets heavy heat.

 

This is hilarious for an Ozzie lover like me to watch the losing managers get heat EVERY NIGHT in the playoffs.

 

It's like Roy Williams used to say when he was at Kansas: "The only way to shut them up is to win."

(A variation of Just Win Baby).

[greg775]

Because it was a stupid decision. Managers f*** up. Some f*** up more than others. Ozzie is in that latter group.

 

But my point is if Ozzie does that and we lose the series, that is remembered as THE DECISION that cost us the series. We couldn't overcome that decision by Oz. Just as many people still think our whole season was defined by Juan's 2 muffs in April.

I say look around, all the losing managers are catching big-time heat.

[BigSqwert]

It's about the players, baby, not the manager!

[Balta1701]

But my point is if Ozzie does that and we lose the series, that is remembered as THE DECISION that cost us the series. We couldn't overcome that decision by Oz. Just as many people still think our whole season was defined by Juan's 2 muffs in April.

I say look around, all the losing managers are catching big-time heat.

I see...so our season was defined by Juan Pierre's muffs in April (Which is pretty close to accurate)...but people wouldn't stop blaming Ozzie. But they blamed Pierre. But Ozzie...Pierre....drops...Thornton...brain...snap...pop...crackle....cereal...

[TheBlackSox8]

Perfect sqwert LMAO

[Kyyle23]

But my point is if Ozzie does that and we lose the series, that is remembered as THE DECISION that cost us the series. We couldn't overcome that decision by Oz. Just as many people still think our whole season was defined by Juan's 2 muffs in April.

I say look around, all the losing managers are catching big-time heat.

 

 

I say look at Ozzie. He quit on the team for more money

[Steve9347]

Gammons:Coaches sure make a difference

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...sp&c_id=mlb

What does he know? We need to find out what people in KC are thinking.

[Quin]

I say look at Ozzie. He quit on the team for more money

 

Lies! Everyone knows he was forced out!

 

It's about the players who need to just win baby!

[kjshoe04]

What does he know? We need to find out what people in KC are thinking.

I was just down there this weekend wearing a white sox cap. They all could not believe we let such a great young manager go.

[LittleHurt05]

I was just down there this weekend wearing a white sox cap. They all could not believe we let such a great young manager go.

 

Did a guy named greg randomly interview you about the White Sox?

[BigSqwert]

Did a guy named greg randomly interview you about the White Sox?

LOL

 

greg has become a living caricature

[Quin]

greg has become a living caricature

 

That's what ludicrous backtracking arguments do for you.

 

[greg775]

I say look at Ozzie. He quit on the team for more money

 

 

That's what ludicrous backtracking arguments do for you.

 

1.) Oh cmon. We are modern sports big boys here. It was a power play between Ozzie and Kenny and Ozzie lost it.

It was a pure 1-1 battle, mano a mano and Jerry picked the pretty boy/suck up KW over Oz, who was a little too busy managing a team daily than to go suck up to Jerry and convince him Kenny was the devil.

 

This quitting on the team is bulls***. He quit, what, a day before the end of the season? Rios quit in April. Dunn IMO at least tried, but hit as well as you could have hit for this team. Yes, you could have probably hit .160 if you got in shape at least, enough to swing a bat. Jim Kaat could have hit .160.

 

2.) I'm glad you guys remember so many of my points. I take that as a compliment. If I didn't get under your skin with my sometime logical arguments, you wouldn't be so upset as to remember my position on things. My ludicrous arguments sure get quoted a lot on here. I consider that a moral victory.

Edited October 6, 2011 by greg775