Dick Allen Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:07 PM) again, blaming the "meathead" fans. If it isnt trolling with your "where are the fire steverson posts", or trolling with anything John Danks, are now trolling with "hey hawk fired Tony larussa same thing Amirite", you continue to blame the fans. That isn't what I'm doing but whatever. At no point did I blame the fans. If you want to think I'm trolling because my opinion is different than yours, fine. But I think your post here is definitely trolling me. Edited June 19, 2015 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Wow I'm actually with Dick Allen on this I think. And I think the White Sox kind of agree. They are going to trade some guys and possibly fire Todd Steverson. That will probably be it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:08 PM) http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2011.shtml Not seeing it. High payroll, below .500 team, lousy farm system. Sale was not yet an established ace (pitching out of the pen and not a lot of people had faith in him being an elite starter or a starter for that matter). Danks was already lousy and overpaid, etc. Abreu didn't exist. We had more bad contracts and no stars (including a few more years of Dunn on the hook). Now all we have is Melky (2 more years) and Danks (1 more year) of albatross vs. Dunn / Danks both for a long time and that team had no young talent to off-set it. We didn't have Sale / Q / Rodon / Abreu (in the off-season I'd have said Eaton but now we'll see if last year was a fluke) who are values. This team is so much closer. Every single word you just said can be said about this team and I think the farm system is worse. Oh and John Danks didn't sign his contract until after 2011. 2012 to 2016, 5 year deal. At that time John Danks was 1 year away from free agency and we chose to sign him that offseason. The albatrosses after 2011 were Dunn and Rios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:11 PM) Wow I'm actually with Dick Allen on this I think. And I think the White Sox kind of agree. They are going to trade some guys and possibly fire Todd Steverson. That will probably be it though. That may be it for the rest of the season, and I'm ok with that. But there's no way Robin and this coaching staff should return in 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Patience, Peoples. Patience! Mr. Jerry Reinsdorf, he of the "very competitive spirit" Reinsdorfs that Messrs. Williams & Hahn told us so much about after the Melky signing (you remember, when they tried to convince us how above and beyond the team went to sign Cabrera; meanwhile, all that signing did was push the team payroll to 15th in MLB and only $2M ahead of the Royals - yeah, real competitive!), is said to be "very frustrated" with the situation at hand, according to Mr. Hahn in Levine's column yesterday. As frustrated and even more so than any of the fans, quoth Hahn. Ok, fine - as it should be. He's the boss, and the buck stops at his desk for accountability and responsibility for his team and organization's performance. So let's see what this "very competitive spirit" of his has in store for us for leading this franchise out of the complete abyss it finds itself in today. The MLB roster is a mess, and the farm system, which looked to be somewhat on the rise there for awhile, suddenly seems to have taken a step or two backwards. Firing the manager and/or a coach or two isn't going to solve the fundamental problems with this team. The solutions will need to be far more systemic, and I look forward to hearing from Mr. Reinsdorf as to what those will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:12 AM) Every single word you just said can be said about this team and I think the farm system is worse. Oh and John Danks didn't sign his contract until after 2011. 2012 to 2016, 5 year deal. At that time John Danks was 1 year away from free agency and we chose to sign him that offseason. The albatrosses after 2011 were Dunn and Rios. I have said it too many times now on contracts. And I was referring to end of 2011 (since I said 3 or 4 years ago and happened to pick that team) and the team heading into 2012. That roster had Dunn and Rios and Danks now signed long-term (2012). Oh and for the record, salary inflation is a real thing in baseball. Avg player salary is up 6.56/yr in MLB since 2011 (or 33% over the total period...3.2M in 11 to 4.5M in 15). So if I take the 2011 payroll (end of 2011), which was 129.2M and increase it by the 33%, in today's payroll dollars, the equivalent payroll would be 171.83M. The current 2015 payroll is $110M. So our payroll is $61M less then the MLB inflation adjusted 2011 payroll and we have one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball (Sale), one of the best hitters in baseball (Abreu) and another one of the best pitchers in baseball (Quintana). We also have the top pitching prospect in baseball (or one of them) in Rodon and the farm system ranks significantly higher then it did in 2011 (in terms of all publications). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:44 PM) I have said it too many times now on contracts. And I was referring to end of 2011 (since I said 3 or 4 years ago and happened to pick that team) and the team heading into 2012. That roster had Dunn and Rios and Danks now signed long-term (2012). Oh and for the record, salary inflation is a real thing in baseball. Avg player salary is up 6.56/yr in MLB since 2011 (or 33% over the total period...3.2M in 11 to 4.5M in 15). So if I take the 2011 payroll (end of 2011), which was 129.2M and increase it by the 33%, in today's payroll dollars, the equivalent payroll would be 171.83M. The current 2015 payroll is $110M. So our payroll is $61M less then the MLB inflation adjusted 2011 payroll and we have one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball (Sale), one of the best hitters in baseball (Abreu) and another one of the best pitchers in baseball (Quintana). We also have the top pitching prospect in baseball (or one of them) in Rodon and the farm system ranks significantly higher then it did in 2011 (in terms of all publications). 1. In what world is Jose Abreu "One of the best hitters in baseball"? His OPS on the season is 10th out of qualified 1b and 39th out of all of baseball. 44th in RC+. His OPS is tied with Mike Moustakas (and Abreu gets the benefit of the Cell). 2. The Farm system will rank right back down at #30 this year, give or take whoever else is having an equally bad year. It was higher last year because of Rodon (Graduated) and some hope from players among Anderson and Danish, both of whom have seriously disappointed this year. 3. The White Sox drew 4,000 more fans/season in 2011 than they're drawing right now, there has been a large cut in ticket prices since 2011, and there will be another large drop in attendance next year. So while every other team is seeing that extra money, we're seeing continually eroding revenues. That makes it even harder for us to compete on an even footing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:51 AM) 1. In what world is Jose Abreu "One of the best hitters in baseball"? His OPS on the season is 10th out of qualified 1b and 39th out of all of baseball. 44th in RC+. His OPS is tied with Mike Moustakas (and Abreu gets the benefit of the Cell). 2. The Farm system will rank right back down at #30 this year, give or take whoever else is having an equally bad year. It was higher last year because of Rodon (Graduated) and some hope from players among Anderson and Danish, both of whom have seriously disappointed this year. 3. The White Sox drew 4,000 more fans/season in 2011 than they're drawing right now, there has been a large cut in ticket prices since 2011, and there will be another large drop in attendance next year. So while every other team is seeing that extra money, we're seeing continually eroding revenues. That makes it even harder for us to compete on an even footing. Abreu's OPS+ is 160 over his career. That would be amongst the top 10 in baseball in that timespan. The farm system will not rank 30th. Tim Anderson, Fulmer, and Montas are top 100 prospects. Our 2012 top prospect was Addison Reed (a closer) with Nestor Molina, Castro, Saldino, and Trayce rounding out the top 5 (Sickels). Our top 5 today is far superior to that and the depth is also stronger. Ticket sales are a very small part of revenues earned. And any of that shortage would be more then offset with increased revenue from revenue sharing / mlb tv deal. And even if you take 10M off that, we are still 50M better off and with actual young and talented players on the roster. I didn't say a lot but far more than that White Sox team had heading into 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 02:00 PM) Abreu's OPS+ is 160 over his career. That would be amongst the top 10 in baseball in that timespan. The farm system will not rank 30th. Tim Anderson, Fulmer, and Montas are top 100 prospects. Our 2012 top prospect was Addison Reed (a closer) with Nestor Molina, Castro, Saldino, and Trayce rounding out the top 5 (Sickels). Our top 5 today is far superior to that and the depth is also stronger. No they are not. Maybe, maybe Fulmer. Possibly Montas if he has no down dips. None of the others will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:01 AM) No they are not. Maybe, maybe Fulmer. Possibly Montas if he has no down dips. None of the others will be. Montas was top 100 by some publications entering the year. He has had an injury but other then that he's got an ERA below 3 and a WHIP of just over 1.1. Micah Johnson also entered the year a top 100 prospect on some lists and while I realize he struggled a bit defensively he's raking in the minors and is still a fringe top 100 guy. Tim Anderson was top 50 by some and while he hasn't hit for as much power, his athleticism is their and he hasn't fallen out of the top 100. Spencer Adams / Danish have had their ups and downs but both are young for their respective leagues and still have upside. Both are outside the top 100 lists now but still far superior prospects to guys anywhere near an organization top 5 in 2012. I haven't even spoke of people like Hawkins who clearly still have talent or Rodon and others. This system was 12th by Keith Law entering the season and they absolutely haven't dropped back to 30th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 If Tim Anderson finishes this season with a .715-ish OPS, like where he is now, he will absolutely fall out of the top 100. Montas's walk rate is 3.8/9 right now, which is on the poor side. He's got that 1.17 WHIP because of a low babip - below .240 so far on the season (had to estimate a couple things because not reported). This system is awful. I would put it as comparably bad to the years you're talking about and the major league team is far weaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunt Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:17 PM) If Tim Anderson finishes this season with a .715-ish OPS, like where he is now, he will absolutely fall out of the top 100. Montas's walk rate is 3.8/9 right now, which is on the poor side. He's got that 1.17 WHIP because of a low babip - below .240 so far on the season (had to estimate a couple things because not reported). This system is awful. I would put it as comparably bad to the years you're talking about and the major league team is far weaker. Tim Anderson will not fall out of the top 100. Have you even looked at the numbers of other current top 100 prospects? They will start next season with atleast 3 top 100 guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:01 PM) No they are not. Maybe, maybe Fulmer. Possibly Montas if he has no down dips. None of the others will be. Kiley McDaniel said he'd have Fulmer around Aaron Nola, who is MLB.com's 31st prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 this is my opinion. when a team is doing this horrible, we as fans starts to look for possible help from the minors. however, we look at the minors and see that what we need help in, hitter, none is there to help. then our frustration becomes more apparent. now for me, i was hoping that the int'l fa can help, but based on the article yesterday, i even doubt that the sox will go that route. so how will the freaking owners expect to fix this ship, call the sox org??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:44 AM) I have said it too many times now on contracts. And I was referring to end of 2011 (since I said 3 or 4 years ago and happened to pick that team) and the team heading into 2012. That roster had Dunn and Rios and Danks now signed long-term (2012). Oh and for the record, salary inflation is a real thing in baseball. Avg player salary is up 6.56/yr in MLB since 2011 (or 33% over the total period...3.2M in 11 to 4.5M in 15). So if I take the 2011 payroll (end of 2011), which was 129.2M and increase it by the 33%, in today's payroll dollars, the equivalent payroll would be 171.83M. The current 2015 payroll is $110M. So our payroll is $61M less then the MLB inflation adjusted 2011 payroll and we have one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball (Sale), one of the best hitters in baseball (Abreu) and another one of the best pitchers in baseball (Quintana). We also have the top pitching prospect in baseball (or one of them) in Rodon and the farm system ranks significantly higher then it did in 2011 (in terms of all publications). New marketing slogans. "Our overall record since 2013 doesn't reflect more effective allocation of resources!!!" "If Rick Hahn had been allowed to spend another $61 million..we might be in 3rd or 4th place instead." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) well yesterday game fully shows the state of this season. now my rant is on taking or not taking Sale out of the game. RV did the right thing. the sox has a closer and granted he didn't do the job,but taking Sale out of the game was still the right move. it is a damn if you do damn if you don't know move. my reason is simple, what would posters have been saying if he was still in there and then got hurt, i mean a TJ kind of injury. Edited June 20, 2015 by LDF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) Sox farm would be bottom quartile, as it is currently. There are strong arguments on both sides of whether to leave Sale in or not. But, as usual under Ventura, the outcome was not favorable. Edited June 20, 2015 by GreenSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 04:06 PM) This is obviously a "We're going to suck for 3 to 5 years so who cares" move. Prescient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 05:01 PM) Dude's a f***in' tool. Anyone need more proof? Go read through this thread, see how often he was wrong, and then see how many times he admitted it. calling him that is not kool, anyway that is between him and the admins. btw, there are many, many posters who will not admit to being wrong even when proven. they would just disappear and reappear as if nothing happened. so what, this is not a debating competition, even sometimes i wonder. anyway, i like the way he post. i know i would have to have all my facts straight, which in it self shows and puts the accountability factor on the poster. to tell their opinion and backup if stating facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatScott82 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:13 PM) That may be it for the rest of the season, and I'm ok with that. But there's no way Robin and this coaching staff should return in 2016. Even if the Sox made decent progress but still missed the playoffs this year, wouldn't the organization still have to consider an upgrade at Manager? This would be the 4th year in a row Ventura's team missed the playoffs. The fact that this team is this bad even after all the additions means that Robin BETTER be fired.Fans have questioned his managerial decisions more than ever this season. I'm calling it now: After the final game of the regular season: The White Sox AND Robin Ventura mutually agreed to part ways. Jerry loves him too much to publicly 'fire' him but this is going to happen. Cooper once again will have the option to stay under the next manager, but all of the other coaches will be fired. I'm calling it now, Hahn will be forced to try and convince Konerko to be their next manager. :huh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 06:33 PM) Even if the Sox made decent progress but still missed the playoffs this year, wouldn't the organization still have to consider an upgrade at Manager? This would be the 4th year in a row Ventura's team missed the playoffs. The fact that this team is this bad even after all the additions means that Robin BETTER be fired.Fans have questioned his managerial decisions more than ever this season. I'm calling it now: After the final game of the regular season: The White Sox AND Robin Ventura mutually agreed to part ways. Jerry loves him too much to publicly 'fire' him but this is going to happen. Cooper once again will have the option to stay under the next manager, but all of the other coaches will be fired. I'm calling it now, Hahn will be forced to try and convince Konerko to be their next manager. :huh This is what they did with Ventura. Rinse and repeat - maybe it will work this time. I wonder why they chose Ventura to being with. Do they have a oldie but goldie dart board to make decisions? This is getting worse then Veeck's circus acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 06:45 PM) This is what they did with Ventura. Rinse and repeat - maybe it will work this time. I wonder why they chose Ventura to being with. Do they have a oldie but goldie dart board to make decisions? This is getting worse then Veeck's circus acts. Lol - well, Veeck did make Don Kessinger "player manager" back in '79. Why doesn't Reinsdorf do the same with Robin, and then throw him out at third base. He can probably still field the position better than Conor, and likely wouldn't hit any worse than the Conor/Gordon platoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jun 21, 2015 -> 04:58 AM) Lol - well, Veeck did make Don Kessinger "player manager" back in '79. Why doesn't Reinsdorf do the same with Robin, and then throw him out at third base. He can probably still field the position better than Conor, and likely wouldn't hit any worse than the Conor/Gordon platoon. If they wanted a former player it shoulda been Konerko player/manager last 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 11:01 AM) Dude's a f***in' tool. Anyone need more proof? Go read through this thread, see how often he was wrong, and then see how many times he admitted it. I guess personal attacks are now allowed. But where was I wromg in this post? Show me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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