KW: Joe Cowley a Liar

[iamshack]

LOL

 

Hey Laurence Holmes... KW won't come on the show because you aren't relevant enough. Quit trying to be Bernstein lite and maybe you'll get some respect.

He comes off as a total schlep to me...

[The Ginger Kid]

From here it does look like what Cowley wrote is at least partially true. Coop didn't exactly refute anything in the interview and sounded pretty defensive the whole time to me. I don't particularly care, either way. I'd just like the front office circus s*** to stop so the circus on the field can be concentrated on. Kenny should know better than to give a clown like Cowley what he wants.

I agree with you, he didn't really deny that he was going to KW with stuff, but as a company man watching the team/season go down the toilet, I don't blame him if he did.

[mmmmmbeeer]

I agree with you, he didn't really deny that he was going to KW with stuff, but as a company man watching the team/season go down the toilet, I don't blame him if he did.

 

Absolutely. It was extremely tough as a fan to watch the games this year and know, without a doubt, that OG was essentially throwing games. I cannot imagine sitting on the bench beside OG and watching it happen...watching him essentially destroy what Coop takes so much pride in, what he teaches his pitchers to work so hard to accomplish, winning baseball games. And he's not supposed to say a word? He owes loyalty to Ozzie? C'mon.

 

[LVSoxFan]

If I may point out one mistake everybody's making it's that if you accept that everything Cowley's writing is simply Ozzie's side of the story... that doesn't mean this verifies KW's side of the story.

 

A being untrue =/= B is true.

 

I think it's all somewhere in the middle. If I had to guess, based on my limited knowledge (compared to some of you here), it went like this:

 

-Ozzie gets hired, and look how much fun it is to have this wacky loose cannon as a manager!

-Not only that, he ends the WS drought in only his second year! He's a genius!

-Guess that genius only lasted another 1/2 a season, considering the 2006 team on paper was even better than 2005

-After a few years, that wacky/loose cannon schtick became something players tuned out

-Now that the team isn't so stellar, while both took credit for the World Series, both started maneuvering to escape credit for the mediocrity. Let the games begin.

-The stuff with Ozzie's family seemed to have been the final straw for KW; as Milkman pointed out, in their view there's only one reality: what Ozzie says is reality. I doubt apologies were forthcoming.

-So then it became "stay together for the kids" (aka the team), which of course never works. And makes the kids more miserable, in fact.

-Like in any ugly divorce, you had both parents trying to now turn the kids (us, the media, the team) against the other one. For us, it just got old. For the team, as was said, when you've got your manager in the middle of the crucial Detroit series making contract demands, it killed whatever fight they had left

 

My baseball geek co-worker said years ago the team had tuned Ozzie out, he had lost them. It's hard to disagree. It's a pretty fine line trying to be one of the guys yet somebody they accept as their superior/leader.

 

Either way here we are. The reason Ozzie's firing back via Cowley and KW's going on WGN is because neither of them is acting like a freakin professional, something they haven't done for years. KW just can't let things go (remember the Frank Thomas "idiot" comment back in 2006?).

 

Speaking of Frank, have you ever seen the WS DVD where during the interviews he refers to Ozzie as a "loose cannon" like two or three times? He says it like he can't believe this kind of crap from a manager whereas the other players praise him. Maybe Frank saw what was coming, LOL...

[Melissa1334]

i cant believe the guillen's , what pieces of s***. to think i used to defend ozzie

[The Ginger Kid]

i cant believe the guillen's , what pieces of s***. to think i used to defend ozzie

Me too. But hey, he torched bridges when he was released as a player, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that he's torching them again.

[Soxfest]

Name three.

 

1. He Lied About Pitching and Defense – It would certainly seem that way. For a guy who wants pitching and defense to be the focus he hasn't quite done his job. He brought 10 time gold glover Andruw Jones to be a DH? Keeping awful Juan Pierre and Carlos Quentin out there to be his everyday outfielders. He brings in Teahan who is average at 3rd base at best and then moves Beckham, who seemed to be getting better, to second.

 

2. He lied about his kid being drafted and not knowing anything about it. Seems to lack an Organizational Philosophy....It's in Williams court to decide the kind of baseball organization they want to be. But they don't seem to know. Half the time they seem to want to be a Twins Organization where they build up and other times they want to play with the big boys and be buyers every year. But the White Sox won't throw big money at anyone in the draft. They won't even consider it. And then they sell off young pieces for talent that is often suspect. And then of course they waste draft picks on Ken Williams Jr. who wasn't projected to be any good coming out of college but somehow managed a pick in the first 10 rounds. Go figure.

 

3. Lies about getting someone at trade deadline EVERY year that makes a difference most times he gets no one and when he does make a deal it is for someone who was good 10 years ago.............Griffey, Alomar, ETC...ETC!

 

 

I did not even bring up the latest Cowley/Guillen/Cooper situation!

Edited October 7, 2011 by Soxfest

[scenario]

Whoever Cowley talked to felt that was the case. He said none of the Guillen's were his sources. I'm guessing some of them were the departed coaches. I'd like to know who his source is in the front office.

 

Tyler Durden

 

 

[SI1020]

Cooper confirmed a lot of what Cowley wrote today, then he called him a liar? Crazy stuff.

You really are good at dissembling, I have to grant you that.

 

[bozzie]

+1

 

As I mentioned in that thread I started, I think this war started when KW publicly threw Ozzie under the bus (to use his term) for Jim Thome not coming back. I remember thinking: what the hell just happened here? And it was during Soxfest, if I recall!

 

But yeah, it would bubble up when Ozzie would continually play Rios/Dunn for no apparent reason and then of course with the infamous (even I was like WTF?! and I don't second-guess managers a lot) Dunn Pinch-Hits for Lilly debacle.

 

In fact, now that I think about it with these two, I could easily see how KW rubbed the DH-by-committee in Ozzie's face, which is why Ozzie took every opportunity to rub Your Big Signing No-Hitting DH right back in his.

 

I think the team was simply a prop in a war between these two. No wonder 2011 sucked.

 

Ah, those that have eyes, let them see . . .

 

. . . I believe it was bozzie himself, yours truly, who spent all summer peeling back the curtains on the Kenny/Ozzie soap opera, and the pawns Ozzie used that were Dung and Rios; it all sprang from Ozzie's demand that Jim Thome be gone'd and Mark Kotsay be DH . . . and it all manifested itself and properly so in the jettisoning of the foul-mouthed, tamale-toting Guillen. Finally. But what did bozzie get for his advocacy? Banned from this board from the overzealous mods.

 

I forgive you, mods. I know it's not easy to recognize the seer within your midst . . .

[southsider2k5]

1. He Lied About Pitching and Defense – It would certainly seem that way. For a guy who wants pitching and defense to be the focus he hasn’t quite done his job. He brought 10 time gold glover Andruw Jones to be a DH? Keeping awful Juan Pierre and Carlos Quentin out there to be his everyday outfielders. He brings in Teahan who is average at 3rd base at best and then moves Beckham, who seemed to be getting better, to second.

 

2. He lied about his kid being drafted and not knowing anything about it. Seems to lack an Organizational Philosophy....It's in Williams court to decide the kind of baseball organization they want to be. But they don't seem to know. Half the time they seem to want to be a Twins Organization where they build up and other times they want to play with the big boys and be buyers every year. But the White Sox won't throw big money at anyone. They won't even consider it. And then they sell off young pieces for talent that is often suspect. And then of course they waste draft picks on Ken Williams Jr. who wasn't projected to be any good coming out of college but somehow managed a pick in the first 10 rounds. Go figure.

 

3. Lies about getting someone at trade deadline that makes a difference and not someone who was good 10 years ago.............Griffey, Alomar, ETC...ETC!

 

 

I did not even bring up the latest Cowley/Guillen/Cooper situation!

 

I have never seen proof of this.

[LVSoxFan]

Errr okay dude.

 

Anyway,

 

But they don't seem to know. Half the time they seem to want to be a Twins Organization where they build up and other times they want to play with the big boys and be buyers every year.

 

THIS. I have been saying this for years! So what we end up is a crappy mix of the two, only it's worse because we don't have the farm system/organization that the Twins do.

[Melissa1334]

You really are good at dissembling, I have to grant you that.

yea he failed to point out that cowley twisted it all in a bad way torwards coop and cowley never mentioned any of the other stuff in regards to ozzie. like how they asked ozzie what about the coaches and ozzie said they didnt need extensions,let them sweat

[SI1020]

After listening to that interview I can see why Coop didn't get the job.

He's a wildman with that accent and edge.

 

I love his work and like his attitude but no way he could deal with the media twice a day.

You guys are right bout that one.

A wild man? He's from New York City and has that strong accent. People from Chicago have a strong accent too, especially the way they accentuate the vowels.

 

[Quin]

Ah, those that have eyes, let them see . . .

 

. . . I believe it was bozzie himself, yours truly, who spent all summer peeling back the curtains on the Kenny/Ozzie soap opera, and the pawns Ozzie used that were Dung and Rios; it all sprang from Ozzie's demand that Jim Thome be gone'd and Mark Kotsay be DH . . . and it all manifested itself and properly so in the jettisoning of the foul-mouthed, tamale-toting Guillen. Finally. But what did bozzie get for his advocacy? Banned from this board from the overzealous mods.

 

I forgive you, mods. I know it's not easy to recognize the seer within your midst . . .

 

All we need is victory to complete the trifecta in this thread.

[southsider2k5]

All we need is victory to complete the trifecta in this thread.

 

I hate you.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

1. He Lied About Pitching and Defense – It would certainly seem that way. For a guy who wants pitching and defense to be the focus he hasn't quite done his job. He brought 10 time gold glover Andruw Jones to be a DH? Keeping awful Juan Pierre and Carlos Quentin out there to be his everyday outfielders. He brings in Teahan who is average at 3rd base at best and then moves Beckham, who seemed to be getting better, to second.

 

2. He lied about his kid being drafted and not knowing anything about it. Seems to lack an Organizational Philosophy....It's in Williams court to decide the kind of baseball organization they want to be. But they don't seem to know. Half the time they seem to want to be a Twins Organization where they build up and other times they want to play with the big boys and be buyers every year. But the White Sox won't throw big money at anyone. They won't even consider it. And then they sell off young pieces for talent that is often suspect. And then of course they waste draft picks on Ken Williams Jr. who wasn't projected to be any good coming out of college but somehow managed a pick in the first 10 rounds. Go figure.

 

3. Lies about getting someone at trade deadline EVERY year that makes a difference most times he gets no one and when he does make a deal it is for someone who was good 10 years ago.............Griffey, Alomar, ETC...ETC!

 

 

I did not even bring up the latest Cowley/Guillen/Cooper situation!

 

1 - Without looking at the stats of every team this year, weren't we close to the top in fielding %?

 

Alexei is elite as SS, Beckham was great at 2B, PK is average at 1B, Morel is above average at 3B. AJ sucks with his arm but can block pitches and call a good game. Rios is supposed to be good in CF and Pierre is coming off a great year in the field and minus his arm he's always been able to cover ground. So the defense argument doesnt really hold.

 

And the pitching has been our strength for a while so not real sure where you're going with that.

 

2 - You've been saying that forever but you have no idea. You are 100% speculating.

 

3 - Really? A GM who isn't forthcoming about pending deals/no deals at the trade deadline? Oh lord.

 

None of those really point to KW lieing at all. Not liking him is one thing, and there are very valid reasons for doing so. But calling him a liar really doesn't hold much weight, especially using those "examples"

[Quin]

I hate you.

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I have never seen proof of this.

 

It's because there is none. He just brings it up ad nauseum. Criticize the pick all you want, it looks to be a fair complaint, but there is simply zero proof of that.

[southsider2k5]

It's because there is none. He just brings it up ad nauseum. Criticize the pick all you want, it looks to be a fair complaint, but there is simply zero proof of that.

 

Unless we get someone to come out and actually say "Kenny Williams told us to pick his kid", there isn't any proof of it. It really needs to stop getting said until otherwise proven differently.

[The Critic]

A wild man? He's from New York City and has that strong accent. People from Chicago have a strong accent too, especially the way they accentuate the vowels.

For all his bravado and the Noo Yawk accent, Coop is extremely thin-skinned and defensive.

He'd crack under the daily questioning within a month.

[SI1020]

For all his bravado and the Noo Yawk accent, Coop is extremely thin-skinned and defensive.

He'd crack under the daily questioning within a month.

Hey you may be right about him being thin skinned, but I don't believe he comes close to Ozzie in that department. Or vindictiveness.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

As far as I'm concerned, the dramatic aspect of this story is entirely Jerry's fault.

 

In 2010, when Kenny wanted to fire Ozzie, Jerry had a choice. Either let Kenny do his job and fire Ozzie, or say Ozzie is the man in charge and fire Kenny. He went with option 3: try to make a relationship that can't be fixed work. And it's been all downhill ever since then, with all of the drama taking off, and Joe Cowley being chosen by the Guillen family as their publicist. If the choice is made when it should have been, most of this drama does not happen. Instead, our organization looks idiotic right now.

Edited October 7, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[caulfield12]

1 - Without looking at the stats of every team this year, weren't we close to the top in fielding %?

 

Alexei is elite as SS, Beckham was great at 2B, PK is average at 1B, Morel is above average at 3B. AJ sucks with his arm but can block pitches and call a good game. Rios is supposed to be good in CF and Pierre is coming off a great year in the field and minus his arm he's always been able to cover ground. So the defense argument doesnt really hold.

 

And the pitching has been our strength for a while so not real sure where you're going with that.

 

2 - You've been saying that forever but you have no idea. You are 100% speculating.

 

3 - Really? A GM who isn't forthcoming about pending deals/no deals at the trade deadline? Oh lord.

 

None of those really point to KW lieing at all. Not liking him is one thing, and there are very valid reasons for doing so. But calling him a liar really doesn't hold much weight, especially using those "examples"

 

 

Rios, at least on paper and in reality for most of 2009/10, was an improvement on the often-times horrible CF play we've seen when BA wasn't in there, post-2006.

 

Quentin went through plantar fasciitis and was actually quite a bit better OF this year compared to 2010.

 

Beckham moved off 3B and became one of the top 3 AL 2B defensively.

 

To have promoted Flowers over AJ this season (and not signed AJ) would have been dubious at best if defensive ability was cited as the reason.

 

Pierre wasn't good at all this year, but he wasn't bad in 2010 and was tons better than the first Sox version of Scotty Pods in 2005-06. And how many teams have stellar defensive LFer's with good throwing arms? LF isn't exactly known for that. The problem is we needed more OPS from that position if it was going to be a defensive sinkhole, especially with Pierre losing his speed/confidence on the basepaths this past year.

 

 

[LVSoxFan]

As far as I'm concerned, the dramatic aspect of this story is entirely Jerry's fault.

 

In 2010, when Kenny wanted to fire Ozzie, Jerry had a choice. Either let Kenny do his job and fire Ozzie, or say Ozzie is the man in charge and fire Kenny. He went with option 3: try to make a relationship that can't be fixed work. And it's been all downhill ever since then, with all of the drama taking off, and Joe Cowley being chosen by the Guillen family as their publicist. If the choice is made when it should have been, most of this drama does not happen. Instead, our organization looks idiotic right now.

 

I like this take.