Do or Die for KW in 2012?

[LVSoxFan]

I don't think it's any secret that many on the board wanted to see both of them go after this year, and instead we got one.

 

Now, you can argue, and we have, about some of KW's dubious signings over the past few years--no need to rehash them here but we'll hold up Rios/Dunn as the poster children. Ozzie supporters have said that hey: the GM picks the team and if the team doesn't perform, that falls on the GM, not the manager.

 

So now we have unquestionably the team AND the manager picked by KW.

 

And what a pick. As the 50+ pages above confirm, to say that this pick is a gamble is an understatement. Most dreamed of Francona, figured it would be Martinez, would accept but grouse about Alomar.

 

Instead KW surprised everybody on the planet by making his "splashy" move: hiring somebody with no managing experience whatsoever. Even those in the media who don't necessarily hate the idea say it is a huge gamble. Thus, after three years of futility, KW's big move has been... to roll the dice.

 

That said, assuming the worst and 2012 is a disaster (let's hope not), would it be unfair to say that that should be the end of KW? He put together the team, he's rolling the dice on how to fix it... how much time should this "experiment"--and it is an experiment--be allowed to last?

 

I know Ventura's a fan favorite but I also know the only thing fans care about in the end is winning. So if that's not happening, does KW take the fall? Or do you think Jerry has given him a couple of years or more to let everything "settle in"?

 

Because frankly I don't know if I have the patience for that.

[whitesoxfan101]

Kenny should already be fired IMO. Anything bad that happens just furthers that opinion. The Ventura hire is a "we're rebuilding" hire though, so I can't see him actually being fired until after the 2013 season at the very earliest.

[Balta1701]

Clearly, if KW is surviving past 2011, then it was not "All in" in terms of KW, so no, it's not do or die for him in 2012 either.

[LVSoxFan]

So the slogan should have been "All In... Unless That Means Next Year." <_>

 

Ugh. I am so not looking forward to 2012 if nobody's ass is on the line.

[Wanne]

not at all...

[Balta1701]

So the slogan should have been "All In... Unless That Means Next Year." <_>

 

Ugh. I am so not looking forward to 2012 if nobody's ass is on the line.

Nobody's ass is on the line except Jake Peavy, Gordon Beckham, and either of Quentin/Danks that we keep. Certainly no one in the front office.

[caulfield12]

Mid to late 2013...the results of "rebuilding" and Ventura's managing will be clear for all to see.

 

Of course, if that's just putting off MORE rebuilding with a new manager and GM, it will suck, obviously. The only good thing that can possibly come of it is high "franchise-player" draft picks that actually succeed and rebuilding the minor league system.

 

If it's just going to be Rick Hahn or someone else (as part of the plan KW prepared with JR the last 2-3 months), then it's silly that KW is the one in charge of it, except for JR's loyalty factor and the "fix the mess that you created" mentality. We'll see if KW really is "Chicago tough" when all of the focus of the media is on him and less on Ventura, because everyone knows who's 100% responsible for the current roster composition.

 

And nobody is really going to expect a huge turnaround right off the bat because of Ventura's lack of experience. How that goes in line with generating revenue/season ticket sales for the Sox in 2012 and 2013...it's not clear exactly. We're hiring a manager who will "grow" on the job while how many times have we focused (and failed) getting off to hot or at least decent April starts the last three seasons???

[LVSoxFan]

Balta:

 

And that seems to be the problem yes?

 

I mean, look how long it took to fire Walker? And hell, that only came when Ozzie was fired/quit. My frustration is that I don't see this in other organizations: hell even the CUBS have finally seen the light that losing = not marketable.

 

Put another way: how long do you think Bears fans would put up with this? Wasn't it a given that Lovie was toast had the Bears not gone to the playoffs last year? And the time frame was similar, in that he took them to the Super Bowl relatively recently, a year after the Sox won the WS.

 

But what I most don't get is how the crippling attendance figures haven't shaken some sense into the organization. I've been to some empty games before but that last Sunday home game this year was a ghost town. In fact, most of the season the games were pretty empty. I felt bad for the vendors.

 

Who knows? Maybe he's making so much cash off the Bulls that there's no urgency.

Edited October 7, 2011 by LVSoxFan

[Balta1701]

Balta:

 

And that seems to be the problem yes?

 

I mean, look how long it took to fire Walker? And hell, that only came when Ozzie was fired/quit. My frustration is that I don't see this in other organizations: hell even the CUBS have finally seen the light that losing = not marketable.

 

Put another way: how long do you think Bears fans would put up with this? Wasn't it a given that Lovie was toast had the Bears not gone to the playoffs last year? And the time frame was similar, in that he took them to the Super Bowl relatively recently, a year after the Sox won the WS.

 

But what I most don't get is how the crippling attendance figures haven't shaken some sense into the organization. I've been to some empty games before but that last Sunday home game this year was a ghost town. In fact, most of the season the games were pretty empty. I felt bad for the vendors.

 

Who knows? Maybe he's making so much cash off the Bulls that there's no urgency.

My interpretation of this whole set of boondoggles is that it tells me KW really doesn't have decision making authority beyond a certain point. I think that the Chairman is basically running most everything. KW gives him 2 outlines last offseason, one "All in" and one "Cutting back" and the Chairman realizes that cutting back means Ozzie is gone...so he accepts KW's "All in" outline to try to save Ozzie. That's the only rational reason why I wouldn't have fired KW...if he hadn't made the decisions. And this managerial hiring screams of "you have contracted VDN" to me. The Chairman picked his manager in 04, gave him every opportunity to succeed with his own money, replaced him with another of his guys.

[LVSoxFan]

My interpretation of this whole set of boondoggles is that it tells me KW really doesn't have decision making authority beyond a certain point. I think that the Chairman is basically running most everything. KW gives him 2 outlines last offseason, one "All in" and one "Cutting back" and the Chairman realizes that cutting back means Ozzie is gone...so he accepts KW's "All in" outline to try to save Ozzie. That's the only rational reason why I wouldn't have fired KW...if he hadn't made the decisions. And this managerial hiring screams of "you have contracted VDN" to me. The Chairman picked his manager in 04, gave him every opportunity to succeed with his own money, replaced him with another of his guys.

Interesting! That actually makes a ton of sense.

[Marty34]

My interpretation of this whole set of boondoggles is that it tells me KW really doesn't have decision making authority beyond a certain point. I think that the Chairman is basically running most everything.

 

Chairman Reinsdorf doesn't give Williams any less leeway than other owners give their GM's. If Williams hires Ventura (a Chairman Reinsdorf favorite) he knows it will buy him more time.

 

[Soxfest]

With the hiring of Ventura, KW has bought himself at least 3 more years of SOS!

[caulfield12]

My interpretation of this whole set of boondoggles is that it tells me KW really doesn't have decision making authority beyond a certain point. I think that the Chairman is basically running most everything. KW gives him 2 outlines last offseason, one "All in" and one "Cutting back" and the Chairman realizes that cutting back means Ozzie is gone...so he accepts KW's "All in" outline to try to save Ozzie. That's the only rational reason why I wouldn't have fired KW...if he hadn't made the decisions. And this managerial hiring screams of "you have contracted VDN" to me. The Chairman picked his manager in 04, gave him every opportunity to succeed with his own money, replaced him with another of his guys.

 

 

And JR really could buy into the dysfunction of the organization being over-ridden by the additions of Dunn and Jesse Crain?

 

Is/was he actually that naive?

[Balta1701]

And JR really could buy into the dysfunction of the organization being over-ridden by the additions of Dunn and Jesse Crain?

 

Is/was he actually that naive?

I don't think he blames Ozzie for the dysfunction. Ozzie was his guy...it can't be his fault.

[chw42]

Unless they go All In again this year and fail miserably, he's not in any danger of losing his job.

[Milkman delivers]

When it's all said and done, people are going to say that KW was, at one point, a very good GM and that he got caught up in making splashes and "flying under the radar" so much that it overtook his baseball acumen and ruined his ability to be a GM.

[caulfield12]

When it's all said and done, people are going to say that KW was, at one point, a very good GM and that he got caught up in making splashes and "flying under the radar" so much that it overtook his baseball acumen and ruined his ability to be a GM.

 

 

And that the "riverboat gambler" side of him lost out in a series of bad moves at the end of his tenure.

 

Perhaps from the bigger perspective, he'll be most remembered as a GM whose goal (while not often accomplished) was to put the White Sox in a position to compete every season, particularly from July until the end of the season.

 

It's a bit ironic that with all of the hype for his trades and mid-season "tinkering," it was only in 2005 and 2008 that he actually succeeded, and adding Geoff Blum (in 05) was perhaps one of the most under-the-radar moves of his entire tenure.

 

Maybe the vanishing dream of the "Sox decade" in Chicago with the collapse of the 2006 team and the freefall in 07.

 

Finally, the last 3 years of acrimony with Ozzie, punctuated by the Dunn/Rios/Peavy/Swisher/Edwin Jackson moves.

 

 

 

 

[TaylorStSox]

And that the "riverboat gambler" side of him lost out in a series of bad moves at the end of his tenure.

 

Perhaps from the bigger perspective, he'll be most remembered as a GM whose goal (while not often accomplished) was to put the White Sox in a position to compete every season, particularly from July until the end of the season.

 

It's a bit ironic that with all of the hype for his trades and mid-season "tinkering," it was only in 2005 and 2008 that he actually succeeded, and adding Geoff Blum (in 05) was perhaps one of the most under-the-radar moves of his entire tenure.

 

Maybe the vanishing dream of the "Sox decade" in Chicago with the collapse of the 2006 team and the freefall in 07.

 

Finally, the last 3 years of acrimony with Ozzie, punctuated by the Dunn/Rios/Peavy/Swisher/Edwin Jackson moves.

Some of you guys are so over the top it's hilarious. It's like we're the Orioles or Indians over here.

[caulfield12]

Some of you guys are so over the top it's hilarious. It's like we're the Orioles or Indians over here.

 

 

The fact of the matter is that we've spent (wasted) a TON of money from 2006-2011.

 

The Tigers have spent the same or more, but at least they have a World Series appearance and another ALCS (or more). Of course, they also came up short against the Twins in 2006 and 2009 in terms of winning the division.

 

Say whatever you want, but they had enough of a minor league system to acquire Cabrera, Dombrowski chose perfectly with Victor Martinez (instead of Dunn) and then the two key acquisitions of Fister and Delmon Young helped to put that team over the top. They finished 38-16 and we are currently MILES behind them. Maybe not 15 games, but nobody will be surprised if we're predicted to finish 8-12 game back and in 3rd/4th place at the beginning of 2012.

 

As far as being like the Indians, that's not the worst approach to be taking. Anything is better than the Orioles or Astros, who have been stuck between rebuilding and holding onto some of their aging veterans/journeymen.

 

You could probably name 5-7 organizations we're clearly in better shape in (especially considering our advantage due to the Chicago market), but we're not in better shape than when KW took over the team in 2001, either.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2011 by caulfield12

[TaylorStSox]

Worse shape than 2001? You mean that great team that didn't win a damn thing. We're not in nearly as bad of shape as you make it out to be. We're relatively young and still have strong pitching. For a team that has such an awful system we'll have a bunch of contributions from players that spent time in said system. I'm not a fan of where we're at, but it's nowhere near as dire as this site makes it out to be. In fact, if a couple things go our way next year, I wouldn't be shocked to see the Sox overtake the Tigers. They're good but hardly a Juggernaut. Now I understand wju that hyperbole thread was a sticky.

 

BTW, I know its easy to forget but there is that thing we did a few years ago that nearly 90 years of Sox players and GM's failed to accomplish.

[WCSox]

When it's all said and done, people are going to say that KW was, at one point, a very good GM and that he got caught up in making splashes and "flying under the radar" so much that it overtook his baseball acumen and ruined his ability to be a GM.

 

Rios and Peavy were definitely risks, but I don't have much of a problem with his other major moves. Who could've predicted that Adam Dunn would post a .569 OPS this year? Most of his other acquisitions (Garcia, Dye, Contreras, AJ, Danks, Floyd, Jenks, Thome) worked out really well. If anything, his aggressiveness was a plus.

 

The one very legit criticism is the farm system under Kenny. THAT'S what's going to harm his legacy.

 

[TaylorStSox]

Rios and Peavy were definitely risks, but I don't have much of a problem with his other major moves. Who could've predicted that Adam Dunn would post a .569 OPS this year? Most of his other acquisitions (Garcia, Dye, Contreras, AJ, Danks, Floyd, Jenks, Thome) worked out really well. If anything, his aggressiveness was a plus.

 

The one very legit criticism is the farm system under Kenny. THAT'S what's going to harm his legacy.

The farm hasn't produced enough impact players and KW's been forced to get creative to find them. Unfortunately those guys failed to live up to their end of the bargain. However, the following positions will be filled by guys we've had some part in developing. LF, RF, 3B, SS, 2B, Closed, Set up, a couple starters and most of the bench. That's not a bad nucleus to build around. The problem is that the rest of the positions are filled with veterans who are underperforming. The good side is that most of that nucleus are under team control for a good amount of time.

[kitekrazy]

Rios and Peavy were definitely risks, but I don't have much of a problem with his other major moves. Who could've predicted that Adam Dunn would post a .569 OPS this year? Most of his other acquisitions (Garcia, Dye, Contreras, AJ, Danks, Floyd, Jenks, Thome) worked out really well. If anything, his aggressiveness was a plus.

 

The one very legit criticism is the farm system under Kenny. THAT'S what's going to harm his legacy.

 

That may be Reinsdorf's doing as well.

 

[caulfield12]

Worse shape than 2001? You mean that great team that didn't win a damn thing. We're not in nearly as bad of shape as you make it out to be. We're relatively young and still have strong pitching. For a team that has such an awful system we'll have a bunch of contributions from players that spent time in said system. I'm not a fan of where we're at, but it's nowhere near as dire as this site makes it out to be. In fact, if a couple things go our way next year, I wouldn't be shocked to see the Sox overtake the Tigers. They're good but hardly a Juggernaut. Now I understand wju that hyperbole thread was a sticky.

 

BTW, I know its easy to forget but there is that thing we did a few years ago that nearly 90 years of Sox players and GM's failed to accomplish.

 

 

However, if you subtract Buehrle AND Danks OR Floyd, that rotation goes from a strength to a definite weakness.

 

Then Chris Sale simply HAS to quickly evolve into the next Randy Johnson...and not break down like Liriano somewhere in the process.

 

As far as 2005 goes, the statute of limitations for the majority of the fanbase has already passed. Expectations have increased, and you can both blame and credit KW for that.

 

Most of the posters here aren't expecting a competitive team before 2014. So, if they're not at least .500 in 2014, are you still going to cite 2005 as the reason to retain KW? Just curious. What has he done in the last 3 years to give Sox fans a reason for hope? I hope it's something more than Humber, Santos, Sale and Viciedo!!!

 

 

 

 

[TaylorStSox]

However, if you subtract Buehrle AND Danks OR Floyd, that rotation goes from a strength to a definite weakness.

 

Then Chris Sale simply HAS to quickly evolve into the next Randy Johnson...and not break down like Liriano somewhere in the process.

 

As far as 2005 goes, the statute of limitations for the majority of the fanbase has already passed. Expectations have increased, and you can both blame and credit KW for that.

 

Most of the posters here aren't expecting a competitive team before 2014. So, if they're not at least .500 in 2014, are you still going to cite 2005 as the reason to retain KW? Just curious. What has he done in the last 3 years to give Sox fans a reason for hope? I hope it's something more than Humber, Santos, Sale and Viciedo!!!

Personally, I've liked the teams he's assembled over the last couple years. On paper we should have been bettter. We weren't. That's life. That's baseball. I don't think he's the best GM around, bit I think he understands how to build a competitive mid market team. You have to take some risks.

 

You're right. 2005 didn't grant Williams a lifetime contract. I am bothered by this attitude that he's baseball retarded despite building a World Championship team though.