Marty34 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:30 PM) The GM deserves to know WTF is going on with his team too... Most GM's ask the manager instead of having a spy run up to their office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:31 PM) And KW has now taken an action to resolve that problem...removing the single individual he judged to be most responsible for that dysfunction. If everyone in an office hates one worker and can't get along with them, the boss doesn't fire himself or herself. Problem is the spy got a longer contract than the new manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 06:34 PM) Most GM's ask the manager instead of having a spy run up to their office. Most GM's can trust their manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 06:36 PM) Problem is the spy got a longer contract than the new manager. If that employee was the most valuable person in the office, he or she damn well better get a longer contract than the replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:36 PM) Problem is the spy got a longer contract than the new manager. Could it be that's because he's really good at his job? Herm should be given a lifetime contract while they're at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 02:36 PM) What are we, in high school? "The Chicago White Sox were unable to sign a single FA pitcher because their pitching coach has been deemed a tattletale." Haha, the funny thing is that is almost what he said, verbatim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:07 PM) Why shouldn't KW know everything that goes on in the clubhouse? It's his f***in team. He's the boss. He put of together. If he wants to sit on Konerko's lap in the dugout for every game, he can. Spies? Get the f*** outta here. Ozzie thought he was bigger than the Chicago White Sox. f*** him. Seriously, this. The way Ozzie talks about it, it was an open war between himself and KW and he wanted to be sure that KW had no knowledge about his own team. There's an Ozzie defense in there? Edited October 18, 2011 by Milkman delivers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Here's the question Marty. Look at the Red Sox. How is it possible that a team with so much intense media coverage could have all those things going on around the team and none of it was revealed until after the season? Listen to the hilarious John Henry interviews when he got so angry with the "one-sidedness" and "despicableness" of the Boston news media that he went in to complain, only to give one of the most befuddled interviews in talk radio history. The same interview in which he threw one of the biggest FA signings in history, Carl Crawford, completely under the bus. At least Reinsdorf hasn't done anything like that publicly with Dunn and Rios, even though he certainly has a right to as an owner who's getting zero ROI from those guys...to the point where they're crippling the rest of the team. At least the White Sox organization isn't dumping dirt directly on their former manager....like "insider sources" are by telling about Francona's distractions with marriage problems and painkiller use. Apparently it was okay for the Guillens to dump all over Bobby Jenks though, right? So if you have a $150-175 million payroll like the Red Sox do every year, don't you have a responsibility to know what's going on, somehow? I'm sure the players (Dustin Pedroia covered for the guys by claiming he had no idea what was going on) knew it...but maybe if someone got in Beckett's or Lackey's face the first or second week of September, they could easily have salvaged their season...Tito's job, Epstein's job. I'm more proud of Don Cooper sticking it out with the White Sox and wanting to be a part of the turnaround than Ozzie jumping ship and giving up on his players...if you want to call him a whistleblower, whatever....but I have respect for competent non-corrupt policemen, corporate executives, anyone who's willing to stand up and try to protect the integrity of an institution. That whole "just following orders" and keeping the code of silence really hasn't worked well in history. It just gets used an excuse for expiating the behavior of those who've crossed the line. And Ozzie clearly crossed the line between caring more about his team/organization than himself and his own situation the last 2 seasons. Was Cooper looking out for himself and his family in the process? Sure. But it's not like he couldn't get another job in baseball tomorrow. If you want to spend the next couple of seasons accusing Ventura of being a spy, that's your right...but wouldn't Robin have more incentive to do that with KW (since he clearly couldn't get another job as easily as Cooper)? Still, Robin Ventura's set for life financially....what reason would he possibly have to manage the White Sox if his main directive was to be a spy, with KW as the "JD Edgar Hoover in the skybox" looming above...? Doesn't really make any sense. Was there any pitcher on that staff who would rather have seen Don Cooper than Ozzie go? I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:12 PM) Oh, so Kenny didnt know that until Coop told him? If you(not just you Marty, anyone. Ozzie, Cowley, etc) are going to label Coop a rat/snitch, lets talk here about what Coop actually said that could have affected Ozzie in any way. As far as we all know, Ozzie was welcome to come back and coach for his last year of the contract, and he didnt want to do that because he wanted guaranteed money. He spoke to JR about it(which was, in effect, going over his immediate boss to negotiate, which somehow seems ok here), and Jerry, from all accounts, told him he had to play out his final year. Ozzie didnt like that, and went ahead and greased the wheels for the move to Florida. So how exactly does Coop become a rat/snitch here? What exactly could he have told kenny that would have made the above situation happen? What could Coop have possibly said worse than anything Ozzie or Oney have said or tweeted in the past two years? Its as if you think that Coop gave KW some revelation that Ozzie is a verbally irresponsible person and a mediocre manager. We all could see it. KW/Coop isnt the one running around spreading rumors about Ozzie stepping out on his wife, or stories about what happened in the clubhouse. then you add on top of that the Sox having barely .500 years the past 3 seasons, what the hell could coop have possible said or done that Ozzie hasnt said or done himself? Beautiful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Snitches and spies. Awesome. You wouldnt know the Sox were actually a baseball team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:46 PM) Here's the question Marty. Look at the Red Sox. How is it possible that a team with so much intense media coverage could have all those things going on around the team and none of it was revealed until after the season? Listen to the hilarious John Henry interviews when he got so angry with the "one-sidedness" and "despicableness" of the Boston news media that he went in to complain, only to give one of the most befuddled interviews in talk radio history. The same interview in which he threw one of the biggest FA signings in history, Carl Crawford, completely under the bus. At least Reinsdorf hasn't done anything like that publicly with Dunn and Rios, even though he certainly has a right to as an owner who's getting zero ROI from those guys...to the point where they're crippling the rest of the team. At least the White Sox organization isn't dumping dirt directly on their former manager....like "insider sources" are by telling about Francona's distractions with marriage problems and painkiller use. Apparently it was okay for the Guillens to dump all over Bobby Jenks though, right? So if you have a $150-175 million payroll like the Red Sox do every year, don't you have a responsibility to know what's going on, somehow? I'm sure the players (Dustin Pedroia covered for the guys by claiming he had no idea what was going on) knew it...but maybe if someone got in Beckett's or Lackey's face the first or second week of September, they could easily have salvaged their season...Tito's job, Epstein's job. I'm more proud of Don Cooper sticking it out with the White Sox and wanting to be a part of the turnaround than Ozzie jumping ship and giving up on his players...if you want to call him a whistleblower, whatever....but I have respect for competent non-corrupt policemen, corporate executives, anyone who's willing to stand up and try to protect the integrity of an institution. That whole "just following orders" and keeping the code of silence really hasn't worked well in history. It just gets used an excuse for expiating the behavior of those who've crossed the line. And Ozzie clearly crossed the line between caring more about his team/organization than himself and his own situation the last 2 seasons. Was Cooper looking out for himself and his family in the process? Sure. But it's not like he couldn't get another job in baseball tomorrow. If you want to spend the next couple of seasons accusing Ventura of being a spy, that's your right...but wouldn't Robin have more incentive to do that with KW (since he clearly couldn't get another job as easily as Cooper)? Still, Robin Ventura's set for life financially....what reason would he possibly have to manage the White Sox if his main directive was to be a spy, with KW as the "JD Edgar Hoover in the skybox" looming above...? Doesn't really make any sense. Was there any pitcher on that staff who would rather have seen Don Cooper than Ozzie go? I don't think so. It's Kenny's right to have a spy in the clubhouse if he wants. I'd be willing to wager that Chairman Reinsdorf has a few sprinkled throughout the organization too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 04:36 PM) Who knows what they didn't trust him with? Maybe the coaches talked amongst themselves about what a terrible signing Dunn was and Coop told Kenny about it. And let us not forget this is Ozzie Guillen calling someone a rat. You know, the Ozzie Guillen who couldn't be trusted with the moves that the organization was working on, because he would spill them to the press? I guess he is the expert, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:18 PM) If Kenny wants to have a spy in the clubhouse that's his right. It does add to the dysfunction of it all though. Plenty of spies in that clubhouse... They just all had the last name Guillen... Ozzie, Ozzie Jr, Oney, Ozney, and Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 07:18 PM) Plenty of spies in that clubhouse... They just all had the last name Guillen... Ozzie, Ozzie Jr, Oney, Ozney, and Joe. We signed Jose Guillen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 01:16 PM) So to recap the questions that the truthsayer didn't ask... -If Cooper is a backstabber for being back with the Sox, what does that make Harold Baines? -If loyalty is so important, why didn't Ozzie take Greg Walker and Jeff Cox with him? -If Cooper is Kenny Williams' b**** for telling Kenny what is going on in the locker room, what does that make Joe for telling the general public Ozzie's version of what is going on in the locker room? -What happened to the promise about not writing about Guillen for three weeks? -The Sox had Guillen under contract for 2012 because he asked for, and received, the exercise of his option last year. When you factor in that guys like Joe Torre and Tony LaRussa have managed on to the last year of their deal multiple times, what makes Ozzie think he is more deserving of a deal than guys who will be Hall of Fame managers? -If Kenny Williams is "Hollywood" for a very short cameo on a Chicago themed tv show, what does it make Ozzie Guillen for going on to things like Fox and ESPN for TV coverage, not to mention the facebook account, the twitter account, and the webpages? Why doesn't Joe call out someone like AJ for going on TV and even on wrestling shows? -If Don Cooper is wrong for going over Ozzie's head to go to Kenny for an extension when he doesn't have a contract for 2012, why isn't it wrong for Ozzie to go over Kenny's head to Jerry Reinsdorf, when he already has a deal for 2012? Am I missing anything that any objective columnist would have asked Ozzie at some point? The only thing you may be missing is Cooper actually worked this year on the last year of his contract. Something Ozzie wouldn't do. Why didn't Ozzie make sure his coaches were signed as long as he has been? I can't see how its wrong or backstabbing for Cooper to be concerned about his future. Ozzie can't live on $2 million a year and Cooper makes nowhere near that, and he had no contract. He signed his extension after Ozzie left. Greg, I know it hurts, but your boy Ozzie really is dumb. His basically Oney with some gray hairs. Edited October 19, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 09:29 AM) Two things: 1.) If Guillen was so concerned with his coaches he should have brought Cox and Walker with him to Miami. 2.) Coop being called out as a rat seems to be deserved. 1) Yes! 2) Then can I call Ozzie a chihuahua (all bark and no bite), Harold a panda, and Herm a penguin? QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 09:41 AM) Make your own judgement about working with a rat . . . Coop is Kenny's eyes and ears in that clubhouse. Ok, I will. The rat who circumvented his boss to demand and extension...got fired. The guy who went to his boss and asked for one is still here. QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 09:51 AM) Now it makes sense why Coop wasn't given serious consideration for the manager's job. Kenny didn't have a spy to take his place. Or maybe because he's a brilliant pitching coach? QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 10:17 AM) It would be beneficial to everyone involved if you put some thought into your posts. Cooper got a 4-year deal, Ventura got a 3-year deal. It would be beneficial to everyone involved if you put some thought into your posts. Cooper, Baines, and all the non Cora/Cox/Walker coaches got fired. Ozzie quit. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 10:23 AM) And you think that Cooper being a snitch is why? :lolhitting :lolhitting No legitimate back up info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 10:35 AM) Guillen was hired by chairman Reinsdorf. Williams needed a spy. If by "Hired by chairman Reinsdorf" you mean "Hired by Kenny Williams", since the GM, you know, does hires. QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 01:33 PM) Again, don't understand the Cowley hatred. Would you prefer him not to report what Guillen thinks of Cooper or Williams? He is a poor journalist. He editorializes (slight pass as a columnist), he tells a one-sided story, has told one story for a year now (despite the fact that he is no longer the writer for just the Sox), he mocks the local fan base, makes s*** up for a story, and has been banned from the White Sox front office and suspended from the BBWAA for a reason. QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 01:41 PM) I think it's news that Guillen went on record about his feeling about Cooper. I'd rather know information from one side than get no information at all. I think I'm intelligent enough to understand Guillen has an agenda and can take that into account when reading about this. Was it news then when Oney aired Bobby's dirty laundry? Yes. Did it need to be editorialized? No. And you may be intelligent enough to realize Ozzie has an agenda when you read and/or write these stories, but a lot of people taken written word as gospel, due to the "believe none of what you hear, half of what you read" saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 03:06 PM) The story is that Guillen and at least some coaches did not trust Cooper. Ok...if "some coaches" are Cora, Cox, and Walker...Cora was going to be with Ozzie wherever he went, Cox is a bad 3B coach, and Walker was terrible as a hitting coach. Maybe they we're jealous. QUOTE (RockRaines @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 03:09 PM) Coaches that left: Cora, Cox, Walker Coaches that stayed and weren't f***ed over by Coop: 3 Harold Baines First Base Coach 36 Juan Nieves Bullpen Coach 59 Mark Salas Bullpen Catcher Buddy Bell Director of Player Personnel Alex Cosmidis Scout Nick Capra Field Director Daryl Boston Coordinator, Defensive Kirk Champion Coordinator, Pitching Curt Hasler Coordinator, Pitching Jeff Manto Coordinator, Hitting Ron Oester Coordinator, Defensive John Orton Coordinator, Catching Scott Takao Rehab Coordinator Dale Torborg Conditioning Coordinator Manny Trillo Coordinator, Baserunning Devon White Coordinator, Baserunning But the one, maybe four, coaches who didn't trust him are fired. His is, "Don" Cooper, after all. QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 04:36 PM) Who knows what they didn't trust him with? Maybe the coaches talked amongst themselves about what a terrible signing Dunn was and Coop told Kenny about it. Seriously? That's the most bulls*** backup ever. You might as well say they didn't trust him with their cupcake recipe. QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:18 PM) If Kenny wants to have a spy in the clubhouse that's his right. It does add to the dysfunction of it all though. Kenny doesn't need one. He works right up the f***ing stairs. QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:28 PM) This is the general manager of the team. He spends Spring Training with them. He's turned over a table mid-season before. The General Manager being present should not add to dysfunction. BUT HE DONE NEED A SPY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:30 PM) I'm making no judgement here. As I said in a previous post, Kenny does have a right to have a spy in the clubhouse, but when things go in a dysfunctional way he has to be held somewhat accountable for it. You're making the judgement that Cooper has low moral character and is a "spy" because of what Scribbles the Journalist (he does rough draft in crayon, according to my sources) and a loud mouth, egotistical, rat have said. QUOTE (chw42 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:30 PM) The GM deserves to know WTF is going on with his team too... NO HE DOESN'T QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:34 PM) Most GM's ask the manager instead of having a spy run up to their office. QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:36 PM) Problem is the spy got a longer contract than the new manager. Who would you give a longer deal? James Bond or M? QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:36 PM) Most GM's can trust their manager. Nope, Kenny just has to intuitively know what to do. QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:39 PM) Could it be that's because he's really good at his job? Herm should be given a lifetime contract while they're at it. Nah, can't be it. QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 05:45 PM) Seriously, this. The way Ozzie talks about it, it was an open war between himself and KW and he wanted to be sure that KW had no knowledge about his own team. There's an Ozzie defense in there? When snitches and spies, rats and lies are involved, there's a defense for ANYTHING. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 06:13 PM) It's Kenny's right to have a spy in the clubhouse if he wants. I'd be willing to wager that Chairman Reinsdorf has a few sprinkled throughout the organization too. It's also Kenny's right to let Ozzie quit, which he did, instead of keeping him miserable. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 06:18 PM) Plenty of spies in that clubhouse... They just all had the last name Guillen... Ozzie, Ozzie Jr, Oney, Ozney, and Joe. There's obviously some spies in the clubhouse, since Cowley's sources (See: Guillen Clan) always revealed personal information about Kenny and ex-players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 boom goes the quinarvy-mite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 07:44 PM) And you may be intelligent enough to realize Ozzie has an agenda when you read and/or write these stories, but a lot of people taken written word as gospel, due to the "believe none of what you hear, half of what you read" saying. So it would be best to report no information than one side of a story if that is all he has? It's bizarre that you believe less information is better. Kenny Williams has a spy in the clubhouse. Why the hostility toward Cowley? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 07:50 PM) boom goes the quinarvy-mite Where is that darn ignore button? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 09:16 PM) So it would be best to report no information than one side of a story if that is all he has? It's bizarre that you believe less information is better. Kenny Williams has a spy in the clubhouse. Why the hostility toward Cowley? As a legit reporter, if he only has one side of the story, Cowley would have every right and ability to respond to those statements with additional skeptical questions regarding the other sides position. If Ozzie were to decline to answer those questions, then he could then report Ozzie refused to answer them. Reporting one side is ok, but that is not good journalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 08:16 PM) Where is that darn ignore button? Click on my profile, then hit "ignore" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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