Worst Farm System in Baseball

[Soxfest]

Anyone really shocked by this??

Not me, Sox cannot spend the least in MLB on the draft last 2 years and expect to have any depth.

[Kalapse]

Wouldn't it just be easier if someone just named a farm system they believe is worse than that of the Sox and argue it out from there?

[DirtySox]

Wouldn't it just be easier if someone just named a farm system they believe is worse than that of the Sox and argue it out from there?

 

Fathom kinda did, and the Marlins are probably the only one worth arguing for. I had thought maybe the Brewers, but they restocked rather nicely via the draft as well as had some breakout prospects despite selling the farm for Greinke and Marcum.

[Jerksticks]

I don't really care about any farm reports since most prospects bust anyway. Santos and Sale are two of the best young arms in the game and have established themselves as guys who get the job done. Beckham and Morel at least play amazing D so I have no problem letting them learn up here. And maybe Dayan really is a powerhouse, I dunno.

 

What's wrong with that? How is that bad? Because we don't have highly touted guys like Eric Hosmer? Where are these teams that are graduating superstars every year? Matt Wieters and Greinke sucked for a long time. I just don't see how being at the bottom of these grading articles has any importance when nobody EVER knows if a guy is going to be good until he's called up. And even that doesn't settle it since the learning curve at the big league level is usually multiple years, even for many HOF players. GMAFB with all this jazz.

 

Even if we had Hudson we'd still hear about our crappy minors. Whatever. There are only 750 MLB players and most of them suck compared to the 30-50 good players and the 20 or so superstars.

 

We're doing fine IMO; it's the veterans that are pissing everyone off.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Jerksticks

[kitekrazy]

I don't really care about any farm reports since most prospects bust anyway. Santos and Sale are two of the best young arms in the game and have established themselves as guys who get the job done. Beckham and Morel at least play amazing D so I have no problem letting them learn up here. And maybe Dayan really is a powerhouse, I dunno.

 

What's wrong with that? How is that bad? Because we don't have highly touted guys like Eric Hosmer? Where are these teams that are graduating superstars every year? Matt Wieters and Greinke sucked for a long time. I just don't see how being at the bottom of these grading articles has any importance when nobody EVER knows if a guy is going to be good until he's called up. And even that doesn't settle it since the learning curve at the big league level is usually multiple years, even for many HOF players. GMAFB with all this jazz.

 

Even if we had Hudson we'd still hear about our crappy minors. Whatever. There are only 750 MLB players and most of them suck compared to the 30-50 good players and the 20 or so superstars.

 

We're doing fine IMO; it's the veterans that are pissing everyone off.

 

I wouldn't say Santos and Sale are established. Dayan has trouble catching a baseball. I don't doubt it is one of the worst farm systems. They probably go after athletes as opposed to baseball players. The Sox never impress with fundamentals so that is low on Kenny's list.

If they are not developing any players then you are stuck with veterans pissing you off.

 

[danman31]

I just wish the spending and influx of talent into the system could be heightened, but that likely isn't going to happen under Jerry's watch. Cross your fingers for hard slotting I suppose.

That's really my only complaint and what you said also seems to be the only way the Sox will spend competitively. They seem to be decent to good at drafting and developing. 90% of the issues in the farm are related to a lack of spending, both in the draft and internationally. Everything else just seems to be dragged down by that because something says they have the worst farm system in baseball.

[caulfield12]

I don't really care about any farm reports since most prospects bust anyway. Santos and Sale are two of the best young arms in the game and have established themselves as guys who get the job done. Beckham and Morel at least play amazing D so I have no problem letting them learn up here. And maybe Dayan really is a powerhouse, I dunno.

 

What's wrong with that? How is that bad? Because we don't have highly touted guys like Eric Hosmer? Where are these teams that are graduating superstars every year? Matt Wieters and Greinke sucked for a long time. I just don't see how being at the bottom of these grading articles has any importance when nobody EVER knows if a guy is going to be good until he's called up. And even that doesn't settle it since the learning curve at the big league level is usually multiple years, even for many HOF players. GMAFB with all this jazz.

 

Even if we had Hudson we'd still hear about our crappy minors. Whatever. There are only 750 MLB players and most of them suck compared to the 30-50 good players and the 20 or so superstars.

 

We're doing fine IMO; it's the veterans that are pissing everyone off.

 

 

Think of it like this...all the top 10-15 college football programs can get an array of 4 and 5 star recruits, mixed in with a few three stars.

 

If a team/coaching staff is VERY good at developing them (like the University of Iowa), they can compete OCCASIONALLY with the top programs, but the depth and overall talent of the "big boys" wins out more often than not.

 

And Iowa isn't a program that can just "reload" on the fly, usually they have draft classes that stick together and gel as 4th year juniors and 5th year seniors, when they've had the benefit of coaching and time in the strength and conditioning program.

 

No amount of development/coaching/training can offset the lack of talent we have in our system, though.

 

The Red Sox have found a pretty good model over the last decade with Epstein...of course, they've spent a TON of money on international signings, which is an obvious difference from the White Sox spending and performing in the bottom tier of organizations. Clearly, there's a correlation.

 

How JR's allegiance to Bud Selig (going for mostly collegiate players with fewer options instead of the best talent with signability questions) would keep the White Sox from emulating Bud's former team, the Brewers, is beyond me. Of course, it wasn't until Bud gave up control of that team that it really started to become a competitive organization in the last 5-7 years.

 

Certainly JR can see how much better the attendance is in Milwaukee than in a much bigger Chicago market. Heck, Pittsburgh almost nipped us in attendance this year. Clearly, that's a warning sign or shot across the bow by Sox fans.

 

 

 

 

[SoxAce]

As much as I hate our farm system (and overall philosophy as an org. regarding the farm) our farm system is not worse than the Marlins.

[southsider2k5]

I get the feeling that our farm system will be much better by the time April rolls around.

[NorthSideSox72]

I get the feeling that our farm system will be much better by the time April rolls around.

After we trade TCQ, Danks/Floyd and Thornton? Yeah probably. Plus the numbres 3 and 5 prospects from FLA we already got for Ozzie.

 

By the way, Kalapse brought up the idea that we should try to find a system we feel is worse and make a comparison. I can't honestly say I know a lot of other systems in any depth, but when we were trading Ozzie, I did look at multiple analyses of the Marlins' system. And I am pretty convinced the Sox system is at least better than that one. Just looking at quality level at various points in multiple prospect lists, random sampling of players, the Sox system looks better to me.

 

And I totally agree with those talking about the spending problem. That is the biggest issue, is being so unwilling to properly invest in the draft and in the international market.

 

One other thing to think about... evaluating drafts is a little like evaluating the President. It takes a few years after, to really know how it went. Example? In 2008 and 2009, the Sox system was similarly derided as being one of the worst in baseball. But the following players entered the Sox system (draft, trade or NDFA) in 2008:

 

Gordon Beckham (drafted, MLB starter)

Brent Morel (drafted, MLB starter)

Dan Hudson (drafted, MLB starter)

Charlie Leesman (drafted, talked about as being on the cusp of MLB)

Tyler Kuhn (drafted, possible Sox utility man in 2012)

Brandon Short (drafted, Playing AFL, borderline MLB talent)

Terry Doyle (drafted, playing AFL, getting attention)

Tyler Flowers (via trade)

Brent Lillibridge (via trade)

Dan Remenowsky (NDFA pickup, now on the cusp)

 

That's pretty impressive for one org in one year, at three years later. Three guys starting in the majors, two more playing in the majors, and a handful of other guys who have a good shot to make it. And I don't think it was recognized just how impressive it was, until at least 2010.

 

Now if the Sox can just invest in the system a little more, it seems like maybe the org has the right development staff in place down there.

 

[chetkincaid]

After we trade TCQ, Danks/Floyd and Thornton? Yeah probably. Plus the numbres 3 and 5 prospects from FLA we already got for Ozzie.

 

By the way, Kalapse brought up the idea that we should try to find a system we feel is worse and make a comparison. I can't honestly say I know a lot of other systems in any depth, but when we were trading Ozzie, I did look at multiple analyses of the Marlins' system. And I am pretty convinced the Sox system is at least better than that one. Just looking at quality level at various points in multiple prospect lists, random sampling of players, the Sox system looks better to me.

 

And I totally agree with those talking about the spending problem. That is the biggest issue, is being so unwilling to properly invest in the draft and in the international market.

 

One other thing to think about... evaluating drafts is a little like evaluating the President. It takes a few years after, to really know how it went. Example? In 2008 and 2009, the Sox system was similarly derided as being one of the worst in baseball. But the following players entered the Sox system (draft, trade or NDFA) in 2008:

 

Gordon Beckham (drafted, MLB starter)

Brent Morel (drafted, MLB starter)

Dan Hudson (drafted, MLB starter)

Charlie Leesman (drafted, talked about as being on the cusp of MLB)

Tyler Kuhn (drafted, possible Sox utility man in 2012)

Brandon Short (drafted, Playing AFL, borderline MLB talent)

Terry Doyle (drafted, playing AFL, getting attention)

Tyler Flowers (via trade)

Brent Lillibridge (via trade)

Dan Remenowsky (NDFA pickup, now on the cusp)

 

That's pretty impressive for one org in one year, at three years later. Three guys starting in the majors, two more playing in the majors, and a handful of other guys who have a good shot to make it. And I don't think it was recognized just how impressive it was, until at least 2010.

 

Now if the Sox can just invest in the system a little more, it seems like maybe the org has the right development staff in place down there.

 

 

This post makes me feel a lot better about the future of the Sox.

[NorthSideSox72]

This post makes me feel a lot better about the future of the Sox.

Glad I could help.

 

But don't mistake it for me saying the system is great - it isn't, it seriously lacks depth. It just isn't as horrifically bad as some are portraying it, is what I was pointing out. And that if they invest a little more in upcoming drafts and in other areas of the world on signings, I'd feel pretty good about this system being able to develop the talent.

 

[TaylorStSox]

This post makes me feel a lot better about the future of the Sox.

The problem is that we haven't produced many impact prospects. Baseball America makes money by touting the Brandon Wood's of the world, not the Chris Getz.' Though Getz might have a longer career. We've produced a ton of organizational filler bit have had to be creative with impact players. Those star quality players haven't lived up to their end and it makes KW look like a moron. If Rios, Dunn, and Peavy play well, he's a genius.

Edited October 20, 2011 by TaylorStSox

[Greg Hibbard]

The problem is that we haven't produced many impact prospects. Baseball America makes money by touting the Brandon Wood's of the world, not the Chris Getz.' Though Getz might have a longer career. We've produced a ton of organizational filler bit have had to be creative with impact players. Those star quality players haven't lived up to their end and it makes KW look like a moron. If Rios, Dunn, and Peavy play well, he's a genius.

 

The other issue in play is that the Sox just haven't been bad enough recently to hoard high draft picks. Many good farm systems are usually components of teams who cannot field a winner at the major league level for several years running, and thus nab tons of young talent near the top of the draft.

[RockRaines]

Glad I could help.

 

But don't mistake it for me saying the system is great - it isn't, it seriously lacks depth. It just isn't as horrifically bad as some are portraying it, is what I was pointing out. And that if they invest a little more in upcoming drafts and in other areas of the world on signings, I'd feel pretty good about this system being able to develop the talent.

It does lack depth in impact players, but I expect us to fill that up with the mass trading of our players this offseason.

[Marty34]

It does lack depth in impact players, but I expect us to fill that up with the mass trading of our players this offseason.

 

I disagree. I believe the return for the players the Sox trade will be underwhelming and disappoint a lot of people who think the farm system will be restocked.

[shakes]

That's really my only complaint and what you said also seems to be the only way the Sox will spend competitively. They seem to be decent to good at drafting and developing. 90% of the issues in the farm are related to a lack of spending, both in the draft and internationally. Everything else just seems to be dragged down by that because something says they have the worst farm system in baseball.

 

I don't agree with this at all, at least as far as the draft is concerned. Big spending, in the draft, has not proven a correlation between success. The Dodgers were the lowest spending team in the draft for a long time and produced some very good talent. I think the Sox problem has been player development. It has improved recently, but they have had some very hyped prospects over the last decade, and most have completely fizzled. The amount spent, unless you are the Red Sox and Yankees, also ties closely together to where you pick in the draft. The Pirates spent $9 mill on their top two picks and around $11 mill total, last year. The Sox have gotten creative recently in their draft spending for guys like Sale and Trace Thompson, and have been taking higher ceiling players. I hope that continues, but they really need to put more into development and scouting. I believe I read the Twins have nearly three times the amount of area scouts than the White Sox, and even have more in the Chicagoland area..

 

I can't argue with international spending and scouting. That to me, is a much larger problem, and they have to get back in the game in Latin America.

 

[bigruss]

I don't agree with this at all, at least as far as the draft is concerned. Big spending, in the draft, has not proven a correlation between success. The Dodgers were the lowest spending team in the draft for a long time and produced some very good talent. I think the Sox problem has been player development. It has improved recently, but they have had some very hyped prospects over the last decade, and most have completely fizzled. The amount spent, unless you are the Red Sox and Yankees, also ties closely together to where you pick in the draft. The Pirates spent $9 mill on their top two picks and around $11 mill total, last year. The Sox have gotten creative recently in their draft spending for guys like Sale and Trace Thompson, and have been taking higher ceiling players. I hope that continues, but they really need to put more into development and scouting. I believe I read the Twins have nearly three times the amount of area scouts than the White Sox, and even have more in the Chicagoland area..

 

I can't argue with international spending and scouting. That to me, is a much larger problem, and they have to get back in the game in Latin America.

Well I think you're flat out wrong, there is correlation, it's not the only factor but it's a big one. The Angels was once a top spender in the draft and a perennial top system, now they spend some of the least amount and that's reflected in their middle of the road rankings.

 

Just look at how many average to above average MLB teams are ranked highly in system ratings, it's not just draft position, it's buying the players.

 

1. Kansas City Royals

2. Tampa Bay Rays

3. Atlanta Braves

4. Toronto Blue Jays

5. New York Yankees

6. Cincinnati Reds

7. Cleveland Indians

8. San Diego Padres

9. Colorado Rockies

10. Philadelphia Phillies

11. Los Angeles Dodgers

12. Minnesota Twins

13. Washington Nationals

14. Texas Rangers

15. Los Angeles Angels

16. Chicago Cubs

17. Boston Red Sox

18. Seattle Mariners

19. Pittsburgh Pirates

20. New York Mets

21. Baltimore Orioles

22. Arizona Diamondbacks

23. San Francisco Giants

24. St. Louis Cardinals

25. Detroit Tigers

26. Houston Astros

27. Chicago White Sox

28. Oakland Athletics

29. Florida Marlins

30. Milwaukee Brewers

 

I see 5 out of the Top 10 systems as teams that aren't drafting within the top 10 slots, and most of those teams are playoff teams. So how do they do it? It's a combination of 3 main factors: Money in the draft/International Signings/Player Development.

[southsider2k5]

I disagree. I believe the return for the players the Sox trade will be underwhelming and disappoint a lot of people who think the farm system will be restocked.

 

I'd be shocked if you said anything different.

[Marty34]

I'd be shocked if you said anything different.

 

You think the farm system will be much better by April. Teams are going to be lining up for Danks, huh?

[Balta1701]

You think the farm system will be much better by April. Teams are going to be lining up for Danks, huh?

I think the return for Danks will be underwhelming, same for Quentin...but that would still substantially improve the system from its current state.

 

As others have noted...basically everything down there that was close has been moved up. Simply adding bodies will imporve that problem.

[Balta1701]

Well I think you're flat out wrong, there is correlation, it's not the only factor but it's a big one. The Angels was once a top spender in the draft and a perennial top system, now they spend some of the least amount and that's reflected in their middle of the road rankings.

 

Just look at how many average to above average MLB teams are ranked highly in system ratings, it's not just draft position, it's buying the players.

 

 

 

I see 5 out of the Top 10 systems as teams that aren't drafting within the top 10 slots, and most of those teams are playoff teams. So how do they do it? It's a combination of 3 main factors: Money in the draft/International Signings/Player Development.

Gotta ask...where did that list come from?

 

At least as an example...I don't think the Cubs's system is that far removed from ours.

[Marty34]

Is their any reason to have faith in the Sox amateur scouting staff? That needs to be improved before they open up the check book.

[Balta1701]

Is their any reason to have faith in the Sox amateur scouting staff? That needs to be improved before they open up the check book.

The Sox scouts have done IMO a pretty fair job of evaluating MLB level talent in the past few years...although last year's draft isn't impressing yet. Getting MLB level players in rounds 1, 3, and 5 in 2008, a number of guys with promise in 2009 (I still count Mitchell since scouts can't predict an injury like that, Holmberg, Thompson, Phegley again with the injury bug there), Sale and Reed as your starting point for 2010 (2 MLB ready pitchers within a year and a half).

[Marty34]

Yes. And it's not close. RT @sdsufan5: @Kevin_Goldstein @Marc_Normandin @MWEinNC white sox?

19 minutes ago via TweetDeck

 

FWIW, Goldstein has Sox system as worst "not close" too.