iamshack Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 12:48 PM) Ricky Rubio Rubio was also already making money professionally...it's a lot easier to refuse to sign if you're already making quite a bit of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 12:52 PM) I'm curious to know which side you come down on... I'm against the "couple" of posters disagreeing with the rest. Hard slotting is a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:53 PM) He did. But he refused the initial buyout and went back to Spain for a year. And it wasnt a hard slotting issue, it was Rubio feeling he wasnt ready The Spanish team he was playing for also would have required several million dollars to let him out of his contract (Effectively a "Posting fee"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:07 PM) The Spanish team he was playing for also would have required several million dollars to let him out of his contract (Effectively a "Posting fee"). Yeah, I know, but that wasnt an issue. Ricky backed out of the deal, the Twolves were ready to pay it. QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 01:54 PM) Rubio was also already making money professionally...it's a lot easier to refuse to sign if you're already making quite a bit of money. Absolutely. You arent going to see kids coming out of college refusing these contracts because this is what they wanted from the time they started playing. its different in European basketball players minds, because they are getting paid as professionals as soon as they can play against professionals, like Rubio did at age 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 03:15 PM) Yeah, I know, but that wasnt an issue. Ricky backed out of the deal, the Twolves were ready to pay it. Were the TWolves even allowed to do that though? I thought Ricky actually had to pay the "Posting fee" out of the salary the TWolves would have paid him, basically eating up his entire rookie salary for a couple years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 01:53 PM) He did. But he refused the initial buyout and went back to Spain for a year. And it wasnt a hard slotting issue, it was Rubio feeling he wasnt ready That being the biggest point for this discussion anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:32 PM) That being the biggest point for this discussion anyway. you said you couldnt remember the last time a player refused to sign a contract, i obliged QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:15 PM) Were the TWolves even allowed to do that though? I thought Ricky actually had to pay the "Posting fee" out of the salary the TWolves would have paid him, basically eating up his entire rookie salary for a couple years. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4437300 The Timberwolves drafted Rubio fifth overall in June, even though he was still under contract with DKV Joventut in a deal that included an $8.1 million buyout clause. Kahn made three trips to Spain over the summer to try to help Rubio's representatives negotiate that number down, a process that was hindered by NBA guidelines limiting the amount of money Minnesota could contribute to $500,000. Kahn said Rubio's agent, Dan Fegan, delivered a package of endorsement deals and sponsorships that helped make the NBA deal attractive enough for Rubio and Joventut to enter into an agreement on Saturday night. When Rubio backed out of the deal, DKV Joventut reluctantly agreed to trade him to rival Regal FC Barcelona, which will pay $5.3 million to buy out his contract. The buyout, Kahn said, is the largest in European basketball history. In a statement, Joventut noted the "big effort" by everyone to reach a deal. "In front of this situation, and in contradiction with what he has been saying to us and to Timberwolves' representatives from time to time, the player has announced the decision that he wants to be transferred to FC Barcelona," the team said. The deal with FC Barcelona requires Rubio to stay in Spain through the 2010-11 season, at which time the buyout price tag plummets to about $1.4 million. That's a much more manageable number for Rubio to afford, but he said he was more concerned about being ready for the NBA. Basically his salary was going to be nil, but he was going to make plenty of money anyways. Staying in Spain for one year changed his buyout fee dramatically and brought him to the NBA a year later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:15 PM) Were the TWolves even allowed to do that though? I thought Ricky actually had to pay the "Posting fee" out of the salary the TWolves would have paid him, basically eating up his entire rookie salary for a couple years. Yes. A lot of European players came with conditions like this...Rubio's was just more $. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:40 PM) you said you couldnt remember the last time a player refused to sign a contract, i obliged True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:41 PM) True. Now if it had been a complete hard slotting refusal to sign a contract, I couldnt tell you if that has ever happened. That would be a very dumb thing for a rookie prospect to do. I remember Josh Childress leaving the Hawks offer on the table to go to Greece, but thats about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 01:48 PM) Now if it had been a complete hard slotting refusal to sign a contract, I couldnt tell you if that has ever happened. That would be a very dumb thing for a rookie prospect to do. I remember Josh Childress leaving the Hawks offer on the table to go to Greece, but thats about it. Yeah, it doesn't really happen...the closest it might get is when a player drops out of the draft because he realizes he isn't going to get picked high and would do better off improving his game and trying again down the road. Baseball could do the same thing, ultimately. Allow a player to declare, but then have a pull-out date. If he doesn't pull-out, his rights are owned by the team that drafted him, whether he signs or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 01:29 PM) Except now a person can refuse to sign and hold the Yankees/Red Sox/Tigers/Angels over the head of the team negotiating with that player. Except no players do this ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 09:09 PM) Except no players do this ever. There are still usually what, 2-3 first round picks who don't sign during a normal year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 08:09 PM) Except no players do this ever. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Harrington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 08:10 PM) There are still usually what, 2-3 first round picks who don't sign during a normal year? So? Some guys go back to school (or go depending on if they're high school talent). They're betting on themselves and think they can get a berthed draft option down the road. Or put another way, IIRC Gerrit Cole was taken by the Yankees in 2008 with their first round pick but chose to go to UCLA and was then chosen number one this year by Pittsburgh. The bull crap that big markets spend more than small markets in the draft is so wrong. Pretty much all teams besides the white sox spend similar amounts total in the draft. And again, to hammer this point home, a hard slot only turns away athletic players (potential stars). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 08:20 PM) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Harrington Ok...and he bet on himself and it didn't work out. Why are we mad that the Rockies didn't get a future bust? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 09:23 PM) And again, to hammer this point home, a hard slot only turns away athletic players (potential stars). Why? Do athletes avoid the NBA or NFL because of their hard slotting system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max power Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 08:29 PM) Why? Do athletes avoid the NBA or NFL because of their hard slotting system? Does the nfl have a hard slot now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (MAX @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 09:37 PM) Does the nfl have a hard slot now? Yes, imposed it this year. Cam Newton's guarantee was 40% of Sam Bradford's guaranteed money. Clearly, that's it for the NFL, their athletes are going to totally give up and go to a sport without a hard slot. I assume this is what Americans call soccer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 08:29 PM) Why? Do athletes avoid the NBA or NFL because of their hard slotting system? Two points. One being kids chose football lever baseball in college because for football you get a full ride, as with baseball you don't. Second, you get paid much quicker in the NBA and NFL than thou do in baseball. Meaning, in baseball you have your minor league stuff THEN you are still under control for years once (if) you make the big leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 08:45 PM) Two points. One being kids chose football lever baseball in college because for football you get a full ride, as with baseball you don't. Second, you get paid much quicker in the NBA and NFL than thou do in baseball. Meaning, in baseball you have your minor league stuff THEN you are still under control for years once (if) you make the big leagues. I should add too that there is much more money to be made in inducements in basketball and football as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 09:45 PM) Two points. One being kids chose football lever baseball in college because for football you get a full ride, as with baseball you don't. Second, you get paid much quicker in the NBA and NFL than thou do in baseball. Meaning, in baseball you have your minor league stuff THEN you are still under control for years once (if) you make the big leagues. So...because college baseball doesn't offer full ride scholarships...baseball can't have a hard slotting system. Hell, I bet you could get MLB to contribute $10 million to scholarships a year in exchange for a hard slotting system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 08:48 PM) So...because college baseball doesn't offer full ride scholarships...baseball can't have a hard slotting system. Hell, I bet you could get MLB to contribute $10 million to scholarships a year in exchange for a hard slotting system. You're missing my point. You rdeduce the pool of athletes to choose from because kids know they can make more money in football quicker. Mix that with the fact that most would rather go to college for free than pay for it. Hard slotting is just another reason why kids choose football and basketball. Plus, if hard slotting is so good for the NBA than why exactly do the small market teams never win a damn thing? And last, I can never understand why people are for giving the eowowns more money. That's what a hard slot does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 09:53 PM) You're missing my point. You rdeduce the pool of athletes to choose from because kids know they can make more money in football quicker. Mix that with the fact that most would rather go to college for free than pay for it. Hard slotting is just another reason why kids choose football and basketball. Plus, if hard slotting is so good for the NBA than why exactly do the small market teams never win a damn thing? And last, I can never understand why people are for giving the eowowns more money. That's what a hard slot does. If it's "Just another reason", then you're explained to me why it's very likely unimportant compared to other issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Nov 4, 2011 -> 08:45 PM) Two points. One being kids chose football lever baseball in college because for football you get a full ride, as with baseball you don't. Second, you get paid much quicker in the NBA and NFL than thou do in baseball. Meaning, in baseball you have your minor league stuff THEN you are still under control for years once (if) you make the big leagues. Dost thou? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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