Marty34 Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 04:01 PM) What does that even mean? You're a Guillen apologist. Does that make it any better? I'm not a Guillen apologist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 03:57 PM) No hate session, you're just a Kenny apologist. Wear it proudly my friend. You're all hate. Wear it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 QUOTE (JPN366 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 03:38 PM) Everybody's missing the big picture here...the White Sox are about to aqcuire a boatload of light hitting shortstop prospects from other organizations who project as utility men. How many HR did we get out of the last one of those we got? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 03:57 PM) No hate session, you're just a Kenny apologist. Wear it proudly my friend. Every thread you start begins with a criticism of Kenny. #People'sChamp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 04:25 PM) Every thread you start begins with a criticism of Kenny. #People'sChamp You're wrong. I did not begin the "Worst Farm System in Baseball" thread with a criticism of Kenny. Also, since when is pointing out a contradiction a criticism? Edited October 22, 2011 by Marty34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 05:34 PM) You're wrong. I did not begin the "Worst Farm System in Baseball" thread with a criticism of Kenny. Also, since when is pointing out a contradiction a criticism? When it isn't actually a contradiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (JPN366 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 01:38 PM) Everybody's missing the big picture here...the White Sox are about to aqcuire a boatload of light hitting shortstop prospects from other organizations who project as utility men. We already have Escobar, the kid from the Marlins, Kuhn and Marty would count Lillibridge...seemingly enough for now. Marty, what's the point? Should we begin every post/thread with a disclaimer: "We wanted both Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams to be replaced, BUT...." C'mon. You're FORCING everyone to defend Williams with your ridiculous one-man vendetta against him. The odds aren't that great that the White Sox will do very well the next two seasons anyway, so unless you hate Rick Hahn too (do you....? you'll probably accuse him of being a rat or fink for not quitting when KW is fired or moved upstairs or spying for JR I'd guess), WHAT will you have left to complain about when Williams is gone? Maybe because you can't write about Ozzie Guillen and KW everyday or bi-weekly in the offseason, you had to bring your rancor here. Perhaps you should film another segment challenging AJ with your assertion you can steal bases on him easily...? Edited October 22, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderman Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 He's clearing going to be trading players, whether he wants to admit that he's shopping them or just listening. Ideally, he would acquire major league ready young talent, but he's going to have to clear out payroll and that puts AJ, Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Thornton all on the block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 04:42 PM) We already have Escobar, the kid from the Marlins, Kuhn and Marty would count Lillibridge...seemingly enough for now. Marty, what's the point? Should we begin every post/thread with a disclaimer: "We wanted both Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams to be replaced, BUT...." C'mon. You're FORCING everyone to defend Williams with your ridiculous one-man vendetta against him. I want Kenny to succeed. Given the current circumstances, which he created, I can't see how he can though. Edited October 22, 2011 by Marty34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 06:42 PM) I want Kenny to succeed. Given the current circumstances, which he created, I can't see how he can though. This roster as-is can compete if the big 4 do their jobs. I'm gonna lump that on the manager and the coaching staff. They utterly failed last year. Now another group gets a chance to get them back into the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 05:49 PM) This roster as-is can compete if the big 4 do their jobs. I'm gonna lump that on the manager and the coaching staff. They utterly failed last year. Now another group gets a chance to get them back into the game. That's the best hope. I'm very concerned about the near future beginning in 2013. I can see a scenario where they keep their movable parts next year, win the division, and attendance remains flat or down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 06:57 PM) That's the best hope. I'm very concerned about the near future beginning in 2013. I can see a scenario where they keep their movable parts next year, win the division, and attendance remains flat or down. Things get easier once we get past Peavy's contract. The key now is developing the young guys into something useful and reviving Dunn and Rios's careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderman Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 05:49 PM) This roster as-is can compete if the big 4 do their jobs. I'm gonna lump that on the manager and the coaching staff. They utterly failed last year. Now another group gets a chance to get them back into the game. What rotation/starting 5 are you referring to? Keeping Buerhle and paying him $10+ plus on a 2 year deal?? I would assume if they decide to bring him back, they will have to cut back even more in other areas than they already are probably thinking. Sale is going to be in the rotation next season, but does it make sense to have 3 lefties with Buerhle and Danks also there? I like Sale's future, but also realize that he's probably due for a reality check in his first full season as a starting pitcher. Floyd and Danks are both solid, but I'm not sure either will ever be more than that. Humber should be in the rotation because he makes no money, just the same, Peavy should be in the rotation because he makes a lot of money, but I have little confidence in either being dependable for a full season. I see this rotation, if they keep two of 3 between Buerhle/Danks/Floyd, add Sale to go with Peavy and Humber as competent, but hardly spectacular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 06:00 PM) Things get easier once we get past Peavy's contract. The key now is developing the young guys into something useful and reviving Dunn and Rios's careers. Say they resign Buehrle and his '13 salary is $12M, they will have $77.5M in salary committments. Problem is they lose their tradable commodities Danks and Quentin. My guess right now is they'll bring these guys back and deal them at next year's deadline if they aren't in it. Is it possible to deal Viciedo for a pitching prospect of similar talent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) Marty... 1) If you deal Viciedo, how would that make any sense with Quentin being on the way out as early as this off-season? 2) It's almost impossible to get a young impact pitcher for what is the equivalent of a DH. 3) Viciedo's lack of power and offensive "slump" after the wrist injury at mid-season put a little bit of a damper on his value. 4) Dealing Viciedo and keeping Quentin isn't very logical in what amounts to a "rebuilding" year...and it makes the outfield for the 2013 season (that year you're so worried about already) Rios, DeAza and Lillibridge. Not good. Viciedo has the ability to be an impact hitter and is under our control for a long time. Odds are probably less than 50/50 that any of Rios/DeAza/Lillibridge will put up 800+ OPS's next season or in 2013. Even if Rios plays at nearly an All-Star level again, regressions from DeAza, Lillibridge and Konerko will nullify any gains. I'm very concerned about the near future beginning in 2013. I can see a scenario where they keep their movable parts next year, win the division, and attendance remains flat or down. And what do you propose they do that would actually increase attendance for 2012 and beyond? The only thing they can do is win, preferably by getting out ahead of the division like in 2000, 2005 and 2008. Even if they DO manage to accomplish that, there will be so much skepticism to support the team it would take a run of 2005-06 before a lot of fans had confidence in this organization again. Edited October 22, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I'm glad he said he wants major league ready talent for anybody he trades. The Sox don't need to be in a total rebuild. Those things are awfully ugly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 In Kenny I Want To Trust... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Caufield, The idea is quite simple. It's easier to find an outfielder than it is a starting pitcher. A team like Atlanta that has pitching depth might be more willing to give up one of its prospects for Viciedo than it would be for Quentin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 03:54 PM) Not so loud guys...Russ is hungover Haha just saw this. Very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySox Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 07:11 PM) I'm glad he said he wants major league ready talent for anybody he trades. The Sox don't need to be in a total rebuild. Those things are awfully ugly. A return of major league talent is all fine and dandy, but don't expect anything too significant. A team is much more likely to receive impact talent if it's further away from the Bigs. The while risk versus reward thing comes into play here obviously. Personally, I'd much prefer prospects with great upside in A or AA, versus middling major league talent that will be thrown into the current mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 06:45 PM) Caufield, The idea is quite simple. It's easier to find an outfielder than it is a starting pitcher. A team like Atlanta that has pitching depth might be more willing to give up one of its prospects for Viciedo than it would be for Quentin. Yes, and therein lies the problem. The Braves have a boatload of pitching talent, but it's going to take more than Viciedo....teams today are simply too afraid to trade young/quality starting pitching. And if it's so easy to find an outfielder, don't tell that to most GM's. Look how difficult it has been for the White Sox to find either a centerfielder or legit leadoff hitter the last 5-6 years. There aren't as many RF's who'll give you 30 homers and 100 RBI's and not kill you defensively as you'd think. How many games are you going to win with Rios, DeAza and Lillibridge as your starting outfield? Edited October 23, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 08:50 PM) Yes, and therein lies the problem. The Braves have an arsenal of young pitching talent, but it's going to take more than Viciedo.... And if it's so easy to find an outfielder, don't tell that to most GM's. Look how difficult it has been for the White Sox to find either a centerfielder or legit leadoff hitter the last 5-6 years. There aren't as many RF's who'll give you 30 homers and 100 RBI's and not kill you defensively as you'd think. How many games are you going to win with Rios, DeAza and Lillibridge as your starting outfield? Which of the Braves top 3 or 4 pitching prospects would you not deal Viciedo for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 22, 2011 -> 09:00 PM) Which of the Braves top 3 or 4 pitching prospects would you not deal Viciedo for? I wouldn't...certainly not until mid-season of 2012. If we really want to compete in the next couple of seasons, we'll need hitting. You can't trade away the one potential young impact bat you have...even if on paper it seems like it could be a steal. Not to mention with the exception of one trade in their history, the Braves always have had a knack for trading the right players away and keeping the best ones in their own organization. I trust Don Cooper to get the most out of the pitchers we do have on our roster at this point. If Chris Sale is a failure in the starting rotation, then you have to start looking at every available option, including trading Viciedo. But not this offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo880 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 This is nothing new from Kenny. He is always looking for young major league ready talent in trades. The only major, or even semi-major, trade that comes to mind to make me think otherwise is the Vazquez trade where we reveived quality single A and Double A players in return. But this is the exact same mentality he had when we received Quentin, Danks and Floyd that come to mind first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo880 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (kevo880 @ Oct 23, 2011 -> 12:56 AM) This is nothing new from Kenny. He is always looking for young major league ready talent in trades. The only major, or even semi-major, trade that comes to mind to make me think otherwise is the Vazquez trade where we reveived quality single A and Double A players in return. But this is the exact same mentality he had when we received Quentin, Danks and Floyd that come to mind first. I instantly realized the Peavy trade as well. Edited October 23, 2011 by kevo880 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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