joeynach Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 This is from southsidesox feature. For s tarter s , Manto i s no fan of on-ba s e percentage, partly becau s e he believe s it s empha s i s on wal k s doe s not ta k e into account that a ba s e-on-ball s i s not alway s a de s ired or productive re s ult. While di s mi s s ing run s created, Manto offered hi s own s tati s tical category: "run s produced" -- mea s ured by adding run s and RBI, s ubtracting home run s from that total and dividing that number by game s played. "Do we want Ja s on Bay wal k ing if a pitch i s an inch out s ide and there' s a man on third? I'm not s o s ure. There' s a time to wal k and a time to under s tand what' s going on." - Feb. 16, 2006 Seriously this is what he just promoted to hitting coach. Someone who after all the Moneyball, Saber, Theo, stuff he hired this dude who subscribes to 1960 baseball strategy. Doesnt believe in OBP and walks, are u kidding me. Get ready for the Corey Patterson approach to hitting on the southside friends, stay in attack made, always be ready to swing, make a lot of outs, and for god's sake dont walk (get on base). What a clown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 so he's a mathematician? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 From Wikipedia ... Manto's nickname in his playing days was "Mickey Manto" which derives from the baseball legend Mickey Mantle.[2] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 It's not dumb at all. He's thinking outside of the box about how to create the most runs possible. I hate to break it to you, but creating runs is the entire goal here. Obviously, all things being equal, the more runners on base, the more runs, but he's talking about not taking a walk for the mere sake of taking a walk. He's talking about your best hitters knocking in runs as opposed to taking a walk to increase their on base percentage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Picking and choosing when to be aggressive does not mean abandoning on base percentage. I like what I just read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:45 PM) It's not dumb at all. He's thinking outside of the box about how to create the most runs possible. I hate to break it to you, but creating runs is the entire goal here. Obviously, all things being equal, the more runners on base, the more runs, but he's talking about not taking a walk for the mere sake of taking a walk. He's talking about your best hitters knocking in runs as opposed to taking a walk to increase their on base percentage. ...and I agree with him. How many times do we have to watch someone take a walk only to be stranded on base because the people behind them make nothing happen? The most prolific hitters should be looking to make something happen, not look for walks...and in that regard, I agree with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I'd like to see our hitters bash line drives to the opposite field once in a while, but I've learned to not expect much of that. Our victory formula seems to be the long ball, so how bout a return of tons of home runs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:49 PM) ...and I agree with him. How many times do we have to watch someone take a walk only to be stranded on base because the people behind them make nothing happen? The most prolific hitters should be looking to make something happen, not look for walks...and in that regard, I agree with him. I will never blame a hitter for taking a walk, because he didn't produce an out. No hitter should ever be looking for a walk, they do what is given to them. I also don't expect them to smash every bad pitch thrown them, if the foul it off or whatever and proceed to walk then that is what was given to them. It's the at bats where guys chase bad pitches, etc that kill me. Essentially, Im a big proponent of pitch recognition, the better you have the better hits and OBP you will have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 If we're going to be playing the spin-this-into-a-negative game this offseason, then I'm leaving. Unbelievable. The guy hasn't even started his first day on the job and we hate him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:55 PM) If we're going to be playing the spin-this-into-a-negative game this offseason, then I'm leaving. Unbelievable. The guy hasn't even started his first day on the job and we hate him. This is Soxtalk...didn't you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 01:55 PM) If we're going to be playing the spin-this-into-a-negative game this offseason, then I'm leaving. Unbelievable. The guy hasn't even started his first day on the job and we hate him. Well, like two people did that. The rest pointed out what he said was actually right on cue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (joeynach @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:35 PM) This is from southsidesox feature. For s tarter s , Manto i s no fan of on-ba s e percentage, partly becau s e he believe s it s empha s i s on wal k s doe s not ta k e into account that a ba s e-on-ball s i s not alway s a de s ired or productive re s ult. While di s mi s s ing run s created, Manto offered hi s own s tati s tical category: "run s produced" -- mea s ured by adding run s and RBI, s ubtracting home run s from that total and dividing that number by game s played. "Do we want Ja s on Bay wal k ing if a pitch i s an inch out s ide and there' s a man on third? I'm not s o s ure. There' s a time to wal k and a time to under s tand what' s going on." - Feb. 16, 2006 Seriously this is what he just promoted to hitting coach. Someone who after all the Moneyball, Saber, Theo, stuff he hired this dude who subscribes to 1960 baseball strategy. Doesnt believe in OBP and walks, are u kidding me. Get ready for the Corey Patterson approach to hitting on the southside friends, stay in attack made, always be ready to swing, make a lot of outs, and for god's sake dont walk (get on base). What a clown. Read that carefully. I see only one actual quote from Manto, and two grafs of descriptive text by the author. We have no idea here what Manto actually thinks of OBP. So keep that in mind before driving off a cliff. But if he does like that formula, I can understand it. And I won't jump on him about it until I see his changes in action. Plus I doubt he actually dislikes walks - he is saying that a walk is not always as good as a hit. And not only is he right on that, but it does get at one of the major problems of this team in 2011, which is the lack of clutch hitting. If the team is hesitant in those situations, they may walk more, but they don't really get it done. This sort of philosophical change might just be what the team needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:54 PM) I will never blame a hitter for taking a walk, because he didn't produce an out. No hitter should ever be looking for a walk, they do what is given to them. I also don't expect them to smash every bad pitch thrown them, if the foul it off or whatever and proceed to walk then that is what was given to them. It's the at bats where guys chase bad pitches, etc that kill me. Essentially, Im a big proponent of pitch recognition, the better you have the better hits and OBP you will have. I don't blame them for taking walks when they have no other choice...for example, on ball 4 that bounced 10 feet in front of the plate. However, I DO fault them for trying to draw a walk on an IFFY close call that could have gone either way and instead of swinging they left the bat on their shoulder. If the ball is that close, I'd rather you swing than leave it up to an inconsistent umpire because the ball was 1 inch inside. And I believe this is exactly what Manto is saying. Edited November 1, 2011 by Y2HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:52 PM) I'd like to see our hitters bash line drives to the opposite field once in a while, but I've learned to not expect much of that. Our victory formula seems to be the long ball, so how bout a return of tons of home runs? So simple, so easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I'd rather have a guy like Paul Konerko who will swing at a pitch three inches outside and drive the ball to RF in an RBI situation than a guy like Adam Dunn who will strike out looking at a pitch just because it's an inch off the corner in a similar situation. You pay you middle of the order guys to drive in runs in clutch situations not to look for walks. Now if the pitcher is not giving a guy anything he can hit, it's good to take the walk instead of swinging at garbage. But that's an entirely different matter. You want your big guys going up there looking to drive in runs, not looking for walks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 03:00 PM) I don't blame them for taking walks when they have no other choice...for example, on ball 4 that bounced 10 feet in front of the plate. However, I DO fault them for trying to draw a walk on an IFFY close call that could have gone either way and instead of swinging they left the bat on their shoulder. If the ball is that close, I'd rather you swing than leave it up to an inconsistent umpire because the ball was 1 inch inside. And I believe this is exactly what Manto is saying. ie. Nick Swisher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I don't know, seems like a convoluted message. Do we want them to be so aggressive they'll swing at a bad pitch instead of getting on the base paths and prolonging the inning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clyons Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 03:24 PM) ie. Nick Swisher. Yup. I thought of him as soon as I read this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 02:52 PM) I'd like to see our hitters bash line drives to the opposite field once in a while, but I've learned to not expect much of that. Our victory formula seems to be the long ball, so how bout a return of tons of home runs? Wouldn't we all love to see line drives and hitters using every part of the field? On paper, the Sox have a few guys that can hit the long ball, but the team cannot rely on those guys to drive in all the runs, so the "return of tons of home runs" will only get you so far. Walks are great because you get a guy on base. It's especially nice when you get the "dreaded lead off walk". But I saw too much of guys watching a close pitch go by thinking it was ball four. Then they have to flail at a bad pitch or they end up watching strike three. Swinging the bat can result in a guy getting on base or even making it to 2nd, 3rd, or even back home. Being aggressive and swinging the bat is something that is taught as early as pinto ball. Obviously when you're talking about MLB hitters they have to be aggressive and have a good eye. I'd rather see base hit after base hit then a walk and then a guy watching strike three because the pitcher has been a bit wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmmmbeeer Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Weren't there a couple of opposing pitchers that came out this year and said that the Sox are overly aggressive? I can appreciate what Manto is saying, and he's right, but I hope that he hasn't identified passivity at the plate as a major issue with Sox hitters...I think that's a minor concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaus kinski Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Sounds like that's why he's there over Big Frank. Being ready to hit-I like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 04:06 PM) Weren't there a couple of opposing pitchers that came out this year and said that the Sox are overly aggressive? I can appreciate what Manto is saying, and he's right, but I hope that he hasn't identified passivity at the plate as a major issue with Sox hitters...I think that's a minor concern. Nick Blackburn said something about it to a Twins beat writer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (klaus kinski @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 03:10 PM) Sounds like that's why he's there over Big Frank. Being ready to hit-I like it Say what you want about Hurt, but insulting his approach to hitting is not going to get anyone very far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I think we just need to give the guy a chance. What I read was "situational hitting" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 1, 2011 -> 04:13 PM) Nick Blackburn said something about it to a Twins beat writer Yup. And our hitters spent an incredible about of time in the room behind the dugout watching their at-bats, which is also why Manto was quoted in saying video is everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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