Is Jeff Manto this dumb

[macsandz]

I have no problem with Manto's quotes. This is all basic Bill James. The idea is to not make an out but empty walks are often useless. There are advanced stats to measure hitter productivity and the Sox have been HORRIBLE in their approach for years.

[elrockinMT]

Say what you want about Hurt, but insulting his approach to hitting is not going to get anyone very far.

 

 

Agreed

[Chisoxfn]

Thi

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i

s

from

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outh

s

ide

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ox feature.

 

For

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tarter

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, Manto i

s

no fan of on-ba

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e percentage, partly becau

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e he believe

s

it

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empha

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i

s

on wal

k

s

doe

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not ta

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e into account that a ba

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e-on-ball

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i

s

not alway

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a de

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ired or productive re

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ult.

 

While di

s

mi

s

s

ing run

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created, Manto offered hi

s

own

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tati

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tical category: "run

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produced" -- mea

s

ured by adding run

s

and RBI,

s

ubtracting home run

s

from that total and dividing that number by game

s

played.

 

"Do we want

Ja

s

on Bay

wal

k

ing if a pitch i

s

an inch out

s

ide and there'

s

a man on third? I'm not

s

o

s

ure. There'

s

a time to wal

k

and a time to under

s

tand what'

s

going on."

- Feb. 16, 2006

 

S

eriou

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ly thi

s

i

s

what he ju

s

t promoted to hitting coach.

S

omeone who after all the Moneyball,

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aber, Theo,

s

tuff he hired thi

s

dude who

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ub

s

cribe

s

to 1960 ba

s

eball

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trategy. Doe

s

nt believe in OBP and wal

k

s

, are u

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idding me. Get ready for the Corey Patter

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on approach to hitting on the

s

outh

s

ide friend

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,

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tay in attac

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made, alway

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be ready to

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wing, ma

k

e a lot of out

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, and for god'

s

s

a

k

e dont wal

k

(get on ba

s

e). What a clown.

 

I agree with that concept. In the right situation, it is important to actually be able to hit. An OBP that is heavily driven by walks vs. average is a potentially limited OBP since walks in certain situations are not as beneficial as a single for example. Now if he thinks overall obp is worthless, than thats a whole nother story.

[Eminor3rd]

Oh god. Dude, really?

 

The value of the walk is not JUST getting on base, it's having the plate discipline to only swing at good pitches. You want a case study on this? Watch 35 yo Paul Konerko hit. Bat speed diminished, and it doesn't matter because he never swings at anything except the pitch he wants to hit. The only time he ever even swings at a breaking ball is when it hangs or when it fools him. The idea behind the 'Moneyball' approach is to not make stupid outs by swinging at bad pitches just because you're Jason Bay and there's a man on third. Guess what? I'll take a walk over a broken bad drippler or a K in absolutely every situation. If you show you're willing to take your base, the pitcher has no choice but to throw you strikes, and THAT's when guys mash.

 

Why do all the elite hitters have high OBPs? Because they know which pitches to swing at and aren't afraid to let the pitcher put them on if they won't throw it. This in turn forces the pitcher to put on down Main Street when he gets behind in the count. If you get aggressive because of the situation, the pitcher can just throw you sliders and let you get yourself out.

 

I'm sick of the BS Ozzie Guillen-style ego-ball. Yeah, let's tell Adam Dunn to swing at MORE bad pitches because he's a 'run producer.' The reason he sucked last year was because he couldn't even hit GOOD pitches. His plate discipline is what made him awesome and preserving it is his only hope at bouncing back.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Eminor3rd

[nitetrain8601]

If he likes that formula, Dunn's career is over. He's always had a low BA but has been able to supplement by taking walks. Now you're telling a guy who turned into a free swinger last year, to turn it even more loose. I expect the guy to bat .010 with 30 dingers and a .199 OBP.

[Milkman delivers]

Well, like two people did that. The rest pointed out what he said was actually right on cue.

 

NO SHUT UP YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF BABY WHINERS AND I'M TAKING MY BALL AND GOING HOME.

 

I agree with Manto, though.

[bmags]

Oh god. Dude, really?

 

The value of the walk is not JUST getting on base, it's having the plate discipline to only swing at good pitches. You want a case study on this? Watch 35 yo Paul Konerko hit. Bat speed diminished, and it doesn't matter because he never swings at anything except the pitch he wants to hit. The only time he ever even swings at a breaking ball is when it hangs or when it fools him. The idea behind the 'Moneyball' approach is to not make stupid outs by swinging at bad pitches just because you're Jason Bay and there's a man on third. Guess what? I'll take a walk over a broken bad drippler or a K in absolutely every situation. If you show you're willing to take your base, the pitcher has no choice but to throw you strikes, and THAT's when guys mash.

 

Why do all the elite hitters have high OBPs? Because they know which pitches to swing at and aren't afraid to let the pitcher put them on if they won't throw it. This in turn forces the pitcher to put on down Main Street when he gets behind in the count. If you get aggressive because of the situation, the pitcher can just throw you sliders and let you get yourself out.

 

I'm sick of the BS Ozzie Guillen-style ego-ball. Yeah, let's tell Adam Dunn to swing at MORE bad pitches because he's a 'run producer.' The reason he sucked last year was because he couldn't even hit GOOD pitches. His plate discipline is what made him awesome and preserving it is his only hope at bouncing back.

 

This was feisty. I liked it.

[iamshack]

Oh god. Dude, really?

 

The value of the walk is not JUST getting on base, it's having the plate discipline to only swing at good pitches. You want a case study on this? Watch 35 yo Paul Konerko hit. Bat speed diminished, and it doesn't matter because he never swings at anything except the pitch he wants to hit. The only time he ever even swings at a breaking ball is when it hangs or when it fools him. The idea behind the 'Moneyball' approach is to not make stupid outs by swinging at bad pitches just because you're Jason Bay and there's a man on third. Guess what? I'll take a walk over a broken bad drippler or a K in absolutely every situation. If you show you're willing to take your base, the pitcher has no choice but to throw you strikes, and THAT's when guys mash.

Unfortunately that's not the question at hand.

 

The question is whether you would take a walk over swinging at a very hittable pitch just in or off the plate with a runner on third and one or two outs.

 

No one is espousing swinging wildly at s***ty pitches.

 

Not sure where you got that idea from his comments.

[Eminor3rd]

Unfortunately that's not the question at hand.

 

The question is whether you would take a walk over swinging at a very hittable pitch just in or off the plate with a runner on third and one or two outs.

 

No one is espousing swinging wildly at s***ty pitches.

 

Not sure where you got that idea from his comments.

 

Swing at good pitches, take bad pitches. That never changes. The situation can dictate how you define a good or bad pitch, but there are no wins in swinging at pitches outside of your zone, no matter who you are or who is on base.

[iamshack]

Swing at good pitches, take bad pitches. That never changes. The situation can dictate how you define a good or bad pitch, but there are no wins in swinging at pitches outside of your zone, no matter who you are or who is on base.

Your zone is not necessarily the same as the strike zone though, correct?

[Eminor3rd]

Your zone is not necessarily the same as the strike zone though, correct?

 

Yes, if you're looking to punch it into RF. The way I read his quotation, however, was that by citing Jason Bay, a homerun hitter, that he's talking about people smacking extra bases around. Literally every hitter in the majors can punch singles into RF, Jason Bay or Eugenio Velez. And, secondly, there is no situation where a walk is not more desirable than swinging at a pitch where you increase your chances of getting out.

 

The point is this: No one should ever 'look for a walk' but everyone should always be willing to 'take a walk,' no matter what the ideal type of hit for the situation is. You go up there with a mission, and the pitcher tries to stop you. You put pressure on the pitcher by forcing him to play into your mission.

[max power]

Remember when miguel cabrera was being intentionally walked but instead got the game winning hit? There is a logically extreme example.

[Y2HH]

Unfortunately that's not the question at hand.

 

The question is whether you would take a walk over swinging at a very hittable pitch just in or off the plate with a runner on third and one or two outs.

 

No one is espousing swinging wildly at s***ty pitches.

 

Not sure where you got that idea from his comments.

 

Yea, not sure what he's talking about either, since nobody posted anything remotely close to what he just went on a tirade about.

[Texsox]

Whoa, are we really discussing a quote from 2006 and then part of a southsidesox "feature"? WTF

[Texsox]

My free comment. I'm tired of watching first pitch swinging outs, so boo in his comment. I'm even more tired of a lack of clutch hitting from guys who seem tentative, so yeah! But if that quote was from 2006, I'm guessing in those five years he may have some more refined ideas.

[southsider2k5]

Whoa, are we really discussing a quote from 2006 and then part of a southsidesox "feature"? WTF

 

/thread

[caulfield12]

That's always been one of the criticisms of the big OBP guys like Dunn or Thome, that in those situations where they needed to drive in a runner, they might "prefer" (that's the implicit criticism) to take a walk and leave the responsibility to the next hitter in the order.

 

Especially with the Pirates' line-up at that time, Bay WAS the run production on that team. So of course what Manto said makes crystal clear sense.

 

In all likelihood, the next hitter might hit into a DP or feel even more stressed knowing a slow, lumbering OBP guy is on base in front of him.

 

Hitters have to know the situations and what's expected of them, what's their role on the team...that's basically it. I'll give one example, Alexei Ramirez should be a consistent run producer and he REALLY struggled to get quality at-bats when there were runners in scoring position.

[Dick Allen]

That's always been one of the criticisms of the big OBP guys like Dunn or Thome, that in those situations where they needed to drive in a runner, they might "prefer" (that's the implicit criticism) to take a walk and leave the responsibility to the next hitter in the order.

 

Especially with the Pirates' line-up at that time, Bay WAS the run production on that team. So of course what Manto said makes crystal clear sense.

 

In all likelihood, the next hitter might hit into a DP or feel even more stressed knowing a slow, lumbering OBP guy is on base in front of him.

 

Hitters have to know the situations and what's expected of them, what's their role on the team...that's basically it. I'll give one example, Alexei Ramirez should be a consistent run producer and he REALLY struggled to get quality at-bats when there were runners in scoring position.

When Frank Thomas was in his heyday, there were several articles that called for him to walk less and swing at close pitches more often. The White Sox didn't mess with him, which I think was the correct thing to do. No sense messing up a good thing. He starts swinging at pitches 2 inches off the plate, he may start swinging at pitches 6 inches off the plate.

[gosox41]

Weren't there a couple of opposing pitchers that came out this year and said that the Sox are overly aggressive? I can appreciate what Manto is saying, and he's right, but I hope that he hasn't identified passivity at the plate as a major issue with Sox hitters...I think that's a minor concern.

 

 

Exactly. The Sox offense didn't suck this year because of lack of aggressivness and taking to many walks.

 

I'm all for walks and working the count. I see what Manto is saying and in certain situations he may be right, but overall I am not going to rip on Frank's approach to hitting in his hey day. Nothing wrong with a walk.

 

 

In fact I think the Sox problem is they lacked patience and the plate. They seemed to always come out hacking with runners in scoring position and popped up , or fouled off pitches and falling behind in the count.

 

Most Sox hitters haven't figured out how to work a count and wait for your pitch. The Sox treated hitting with RISP like the pressure was on them. In reality, the pressure is on the pitcher who doesn't want to add more base runners or give up a lot of runs. If the Sox practiced some patience, they'd probably have done better last year.

 

 

 

 

Bob

[chw42]

Runs produced...oh god.

 

He's right in that you don't always look to take a walk, but come on...

[zirc]

It's a false equivalency. If you take ball four you have a 100% chance of getting on base and not making an out, but if you swing (and managed to make contact) you've only got around a 30% chance of getting on base and not making an out.

[Texsox]

Just a reminder this was off southsidesox another internet message board. We're accepting it as correct. It's the same as taking a post from anyone here that includes a old quote from somebody which may or may not be accurate. I know it's the off season and we ware looking for anything to discuss, but this stuff becomes legend and pretty soon we all "know" what Manto is trying to do when in reality it's just some guy posting on an message board writing a feature post on what he believes Manto is trying to do.

[cabiness42]

Say what you want about Hurt, but insulting his approach to hitting is not going to get anyone very far.

 

The problem with Frank's approach to hitting is that it only works for somebody with Frank's talent.

[cabiness42]

It's a false equivalency. If you take ball four you have a 100% chance of getting on base and not making an out, but if you swing (and managed to make contact) you've only got around a 30% chance of getting on base and not making an out.

 

Yes, but the quote in the story referenced a very specific situation, where there is a runner on third (and presumably less than two outs). In that case, getting the run home is more important than not making an out, unless you're behind by 3+ runs or something like that.

 

I would want to hear more from this guy than a quote about that specific situation before I judge his approach to hitting.

 

[Balta1701]

When Frank Thomas was in his heyday, there were several articles that called for him to walk less and swing at close pitches more often. The White Sox didn't mess with him, which I think was the correct thing to do. No sense messing up a good thing. He starts swinging at pitches 2 inches off the plate, he may start swinging at pitches 6 inches off the plate.

Plus there was the "This guy is really big and mean, we're scared of him" factor.