#Occupythisthread

[southsider2k5]

What possible justification could there be for the actions of that officer at UC Davis?

 

This also wasn't a random group of people but a group of protesters who were disobeying his orders. That doesn't sit well with authoritarian types who are authorized to use force.

 

I thought they were doing nothing wrong?

[bmags]

The target itself doesn't need to be the reason the violence happens. And yes, I have no reason to believe that police just happen to walk up to a random group of people and begin assaulting them for no reason at all. I have been at plenty of protests, very large, and very small, and have never seen the police react violently. Heck, even at times where people probably deserved a baton upside the head, they haven't gotten it.

 

Meh, they are given orders to remove the protestors. They come across a group of a bunch of college kids sitting down. They tell them to move then immediately pepper spray the s*** out of them and then still muscle them into the ground and put handcuffs on them and the police say what...successful operation. The problem now is that there is no accountability in police depts. It is too "protect your own", and the hardest punishment that seems to be given out is suspensions.

[StrangeSox]

I thought they were doing nothing wrong?

 

I didn't say that. They were violating an order to remove themselves, but they were doing so peacefully. What I've said repeatedly is that they did nothing to justify the violent response by that officer. Not listening to a cop =! justification for any and all response.

[southsider2k5]

I didn't say that. They were violating an order to remove themselves, but they were doing so peacefully. What I've said repeatedly is that they did nothing to justify the violent response by that officer. Not listening to a cop =! justification for any and all response.

 

So how exactly does a cop enforce the law, when they can't touch an offender?

[StrangeSox]

The target itself doesn't need to be the reason the violence happens.

 

Also going to take major, major issue with this. Someone somewhere else doing something that actually justifies a violent response does not justify a violent response to me for sitting on the ground with my head down while the officer casually prepares to spray a group of us.

[StrangeSox]

So how exactly does a cop enforce the law, when they can't touch an offender?

 

"touching the offender" is a bit different from hitting them with batons or spraying them in the face with large amounts of pepper spray. The "illegal acts" that these hardened criminals were committing were on the same level as jaywalking and presented no harm to anyone.

[southsider2k5]

"touching the offender" is a bit different from hitting them with batons or spraying them in the face with large amounts of pepper spray. The "illegal acts" that these hardened criminals were committing were on the same level as jaywalking and presented no harm to anyone.

 

So they are just supposed to let them be because they are just sitting there? Would you feel the same if it was your living room they were in?

[StrangeSox]

So they are just supposed to let them be because they are just sitting there? Would you feel the same if it was your living room they were in?

 

No, they don't have to let them just sit there. They also don't have to spray them in the face or beat them with batons either! I don't know why you're having such a difficult time with that.

[southsider2k5]

No, they don't have to let them just sit there. They also don't have to spray them in the face or beat them with batons either! I don't know why you're having such a difficult time with that.

 

So what do they do with them exactly, and how do they do it when the people won't cooperate?

[StrangeSox]

So what do they do with them exactly, and how do they do it when the people won't cooperate?

 

The same way that passive resistance is handled thousands of times without unnecessary police violence. You don't need to spray or beat people in order to move them.

 

I'd say that I'm still waiting for a justifying scenario, but you seem to be saying that passively resisting a police order is justification enough.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

The same way that passive resistance is handled thousands of times without unnecessary police violence. You don't need to spray or beat people in order to move them.

 

I'd say that I'm still waiting for a justifying scenario, but you seem to be saying that passively resisting a police order is justification enough.

 

You have yet to answer the question of how to deal with these people that won't move, except to say "not with batons or pepper spray."

 

Anyone know why this group didn't just go through the proper channels with the school? If you want to hold a rally or a protest, notify the school and they let you do it. No problems on either side.

[southsider2k5]

You have yet to answer the question of how to deal with these people that won't move, except to say "not with batons or pepper spray."

Anyone know why this group didn't just go through the proper channels with the school? If you want to hold a rally or a protest, notify the school and they let you do it. No problems on either side.

 

This is what I am waiting for.

[StrangeSox]

You have yet to answer the question of how to deal with these people that won't move, except to say "not with batons or pepper spray."

 

Because there's a pretty common way to deal with that and I didn't think I actually needed to explain how people can be moved without beating or spraying them. Hint: the people that were sprayed mostly stayed put, meaning the police had to figure out another tactic!

 

Anyone know why this group didn't just go through the proper channels with the school? If you want to hold a rally or a protest, notify the school and they let you do it. No problems on either side.

 

They erected tents on the quad, that wasn't going to be allowed.

Edited November 21, 2011 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

This is what I am waiting for.

 

You guys are a pretty unimaginative lot if the only way you can think of to get people to move is to beat them or spray them with pepper spray. But at least we're clear that you think it's a justified response to passive resistance.

[StrangeSox]

Here's a pretty good round-up of the excess police violence at various protests around the country

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archiv...rotests/248761/

[StrangeSox]

Without any provocation whatsoever, other than the bodies of these students sitting where they were on the ground, with their arms linked, police pepper-sprayed students. Students remained on the ground, now writhing in pain, with their arms linked.

 

What happened next?

 

Police used batons to try to push the students apart. Those they could separate, they arrested, kneeling on their bodies and pushing their heads into the ground. Those they could not separate, they pepper-sprayed directly in the face, holding these students as they did so. When students covered their eyes with their clothing, police forced open their mouths and pepper-sprayed down their throats. Several of these students were hospitalized. Others are seriously injured. One of them, forty-five minutes after being pepper-sprayed down his throat, was still coughing up blood.

 

totally justified response to sitting on the ground and not moving in a public area on their own campus.

Edited November 21, 2011 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

I never said this was justified, but i'm not ready to say it wasn't justified either. At the end of the day you could be as peaceful as you want, but if you're breaking the law and you won't move, then I think that kind of action is justified. I just want to know how you think you can get people who are dead weight with arms locked to move unless you start using some physical force. Apparently i'm dumb since i'm not sure how you can do it, so please enlighten me. It's not like they could get 4 officers to pick each of these people up. According to the story you linked, at least some of them were resisting that.

 

And the tent thing. Why did they need a tent? Was that part of the protest?

[NorthSideSox72]

I think StrangeSox has taken some of his stances on this to hilarious extremes. But... in THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I agree with him that other tactics should have prevailed. What should have happened was, if they refused the order to move, you handcuff them and put them in a bus to go to jail. I've been there and done this myself.

 

Now, if in the process of doing this, someone starts struggling with the officer - hitting, biting, spitting, etc. - then at that point the police are plenty justified in using OC or a blunt weapon to get them into custody.

 

UC Davis Police, at least a couple of them anyway, appeared to have skipped a step, and I would agree that was poor police tactics.

 

[southsider2k5]

totally justified response to sitting on the ground and not moving in a public area on their own campus.

 

So getting past the Jedi mind tricks that police are supposed to be able to use to break up tresspassers and people who refuse to obey police orders, how common is the knowledge in the ows movement that police like to beat the s*** out of everyone for basically no reason?

[StrangeSox]

I never said this was justified, but i'm not ready to say it wasn't justified either. At the end of the day you could be as peaceful as you want, but if you're breaking the law and you won't move, then I think that kind of action is justified.

 

I don't see how the actions of that officer at UCD are ever justified in those circumstances. Violating some minor ordinance and then a police order does not give police carte blanche.

 

I just want to know how you think you can get people who are dead weight with arms locked to move unless you start using some physical force. Apparently i'm dumb since i'm not sure how you can do it, so please enlighten me.

 

There is a continuum of force. What's needed to break up a passive resistance chain is something less than forcibly spraying mace down their throats or hitting people with batons. You and ss2k5 are being intentionally ignorant when you pretend that the only options are beat/spray or let them sit (in a public space on their own campus).

 

It's not like they could get 4 officers to pick each of these people up. According to the story you linked, at least some of them were resisting that.

 

Have you watched the video? The first action was spraying a large amount of mace a few inches from their faces as they were sitting on the ground. And yeah, getting multiple officers to carry away a limp person is exactly the required response to passive resistance, not beating them or spraying them in the mouth and eyes with mace.

 

And the tent thing. Why did they need a tent? Was that part of the protest?

 

I assume they were trying to set up a camp, though it is irrelevant.

[StrangeSox]

So getting past the Jedi mind tricks that police are supposed to be able to use to break up tresspassers and people who refuse to obey police orders,

 

Please stop playing dumb.

 

how common is the knowledge in the ows movement that police like to beat the s*** out of everyone for basically no reason?

 

I'd imagine that the view that some police resort to authoritarian violent measures in response to people disobeying them is pretty common (note that this is not "for no reason," just an unjustifiable one). I'm not sure how you can argue against given video evidence of multiple incidents.

[StrangeSox]

I think StrangeSox has taken some of his stances on this to hilarious extremes. But... in THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I agree with him that other tactics should have prevailed. What should have happened was, if they refused the order to move, you handcuff them and put them in a bus to go to jail. I've been there and done this myself.

 

Now, if in the process of doing this, someone starts struggling with the officer - hitting, biting, spitting, etc. - then at that point the police are plenty justified in using OC or a blunt weapon to get them into custody.

 

UC Davis Police, at least a couple of them anyway, appeared to have skipped a step, and I would agree that was poor police tactics.

 

Agreed 100%.

[Texsox]

Seems like I have seen protestors being dragged away by cops since at least the mid 60s. Basically two cops grab them under their arms and carry them away.

[RockRaines]

This thread needs a shower...

[StrangeSox]

Seems like I have seen protestors being dragged away by cops since at least the mid 60s. Basically two cops grab them under their arms and carry them away.

 

You must be from the future, sir, these tactics are unknown in our times. Spray, beat, shoot are our only options.