#Occupythisthread

[StrangeSox]

But if you want to draw sympathy you set up someone with a video camera trained on the people not doing anything wrong, while people outside of the camera shot throw rocks, or throw bottles, or threaten police officers, attack police lines etc.

 

There were dozens of people standing around photographing and taping this. No one has reported any sort of actions like that. The official excuse from the police claim no such thing.

 

Regardless, these people were doing nothing at all. They were students sitting on the ground, passively resisting. This officer was in no particular hurry. He was calm and casual in his actions. If there truly was a threat, you wouldn't see numerous officers milling about during the scene. There is no way to reconcile the officer's actions with some sort of actual threat. It was a single individual taking his time to spray mace into these students' faces.

 

Furthermore, the actions of others in a crowd does not justify deliberate, targeted action against people not engaged in any sort of violence.

[StrangeSox]

That is kind of my point.

 

No, your point has been to further your anti-ows propaganda that they must have done something to deserve this sort of thing, police never brutalize civilians without cause or justification!

[southsider2k5]

There were dozens of people standing around photographing and taping this. No one has reported any sort of actions like that. The official excuse from the police claim no such thing.

 

Regardless, these people were doing nothing at all. They were students sitting on the ground, passively resisting. This officer was in no particular hurry. He was calm and casual in his actions. If there truly was a threat, you wouldn't see numerous officers milling about during the scene. There is no way to reconcile the officer's actions with some sort of actual threat. It was a single individual taking his time to spray mace into these students' faces.

 

Furthermore, the actions of others in a crowd does not justify deliberate, targeted action against people not engaged in any sort of violence.

 

Would you really be willing to leave people behind your back in a potential violent mob riot situation?

[southsider2k5]

No, your point has been to further your anti-ows propaganda that they must have done something to deserve this sort of thing, police never brutalize civilians without cause or justification!

 

And your point has been that these sweet and innocent people would never do anything wrong ever, and it doesn't matter what they do.

[StrangeSox]

Would you really be willing to leave people behind your back in a potential violent mob riot situation?

 

Again, how can you possibly reconcile his actions with a "violent mob riot" situation? Why has no one, not even the police, claimed any threat?

[StrangeSox]

And your point has been that these sweet and innocent people would never do anything wrong ever, and it doesn't matter what they do.

 

No, my point is that police brutality in response to passive resistance is awful authoritarianism and I'm saddened that people defend it by standard victim-blaming techniques.

[StrangeSox]

Look at this image:

 

 

There is a large crowd gathered around photographing and taping the incident. Several police are standing around passively, one with his face shield up. Is this the defensive posture of a group of police under siege?

 

There are multiple videos and photographs from different angles of this incident from UCD students. None show anything other than unjustified police violence. No person has come forward with other claims.

Edited November 21, 2011 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

Look at this image:

 

 

There is a large crowd gathered around photographing and taping the incident. Several police are standing around passively, one with his face shield up. Is this the defensive posture of a group of police under siege?

 

There are multiple videos and photographs from different angles of this incident from UCD students. None show anything other than unjustified police violence. No person has come forward with other claims.

 

I particularly enjoyed the cops letting everyone stand around to film them in their planned brutality practice sessions. Pretty smart if you are going to be beating up a bunch of people.

[southsider2k5]

Again, how can you possibly reconcile his actions with a "violent mob riot" situation? Why has no one, not even the police, claimed any threat?

 

You changed the scenario. If they are trying to capture people beyond that point committing acts, they sure as hell aren't going to leave people behind their backs. That's why when police do crowd dispersal they do it in a solid line.

[StrangeSox]

I particularly enjoyed the cops letting everyone stand around to film them in their planned brutality practice sessions. Pretty smart if you are going to be beating up a bunch of people.

 

Pretty dumb, but I'm guessing that this officer isn't the sharpest tool in the shed and wasn't acting under explicit orders but of his own volition.

 

Can you find any evidence of threats to the police in that photo? Or any other photo? Or video? Or report? Can you reconcile their casual actions with a claim of them being under duress?

[southsider2k5]

No, my point is that police brutality in response to passive resistance is awful authoritarianism and I'm saddened that people defend it by standard victim-blaming techniques.

 

I'm sad that you are afraid to question anything here.

[StrangeSox]

You changed the scenario. If they are trying to capture people beyond that point committing acts, they sure as hell aren't going to leave people behind their backs. That's why when police do crowd dispersal they do it in a solid line.

 

What scenario did I change? You've brought in hypothetical threats from outside, but there is no evidence of that. And, again again again, there's others ways of breaking up passive resistance than spraying them in the face with pepper spray or beating them.

[StrangeSox]

I'm sad that you are afraid to question anything here.

 

I'm questioning your refusal to acknowledge that police brutality does, in fact, exist and has been on display in several locations around the country. I'm questioning your inability to come up with any sort of scenario at all that could possibly justify these actions while also fitting with what is known.

[southsider2k5]

I'm questioning your refusal to acknowledge that police brutality does, in fact, exist and has been on display in several locations around the country. I'm questioning your inability to come up with any sort of scenario at all that could possibly justify these actions while also fitting with what is known.

 

While fitting what you believe is known.

 

The rest of it has been asked and answered.

[Balta1701]

Seems like I have seen protestors being dragged away by cops since at least the mid 60s. Basically two cops grab them under their arms and carry them away.

Aww man, I missed a fun thread explosion.

 

Anyway, point re: Tex here. Following the near-urban-wars of the 60's, there was a conscious effort by police departments around the country to get out of the way of protests, realizing that the police look bad when they beat the **** out of a person, even if the person has done something to deserve it. The philosophy became that niggling little violations of the law, like being in the streets, or on a sidewalk in the wrong place, were going to be ignored, as long as things didn't get out of hand.

 

Then 1999/Seattle happened, and that policy totally failed.

 

The response has been that any time there is a left-leaning protest, the response is the biggest arsenal you can bring without bullets. High-tech devices, gas, storm-trooper level gear.

 

Like it or not, the police do not look good here, and they're not going to look good the next time they gas/spray a protestor. It didn't look good in the 60's, it will look even worse now that everyone has a camera...but the police haven't adapted to the new "everyone is watching" situation. They're still in 1999/WTO response mode. Eventually that is going to have to change. You simply cannot have a city attacking unarmed protestors. The optics are too bad.

[StrangeSox]

While fitting what you believe is known.

 

The rest of it has been asked and answered.

 

We know what actions of police in-frame. We know that their body language does not fit with anyone facing any sort of threat.

[Texsox]

If you'll you notice, I have never actually made that claim. My claim was this was the purpose all along.

 

Sorry, I was missing your point. It is probably buried here, but would you agree that . . .

 

1. grabbing the protestors and carrying them away would have been a better approach?
2. And, that by pepper spraying them they made themselves (police) look bad and the protestors look good?

3. Which is what the protestors wanted all along?

 

 

 

[Texsox]

Ladies and gentlemen, in today's matinee performance, playing the roll of Balta will be StrangeSox. Do not adjust your monitors.

[southsider2k5]

Ladies and gentlemen, in today's matinee performance, playing the roll of Balta will be StrangeSox. Do not adjust your monitors.

 

Sorry to disappoint, but when it got back to the beginning again, I quit wasting my time.

[Texsox]

Sorry to disappoint, but when it got back to the beginning again, I quit wasting my time.

Just offering a chance for a summary piece for those that prefer a Spark Notes version.

[StrangeSox]

http://boingboing.net/2011/11/20/ucdeyetwitness.html

 

 

 

[GoSox05]

Those kids were blocking the sidewalk. If that doesn't scream military grade pepper spray to the face I don't know what does.

 

I bet they were communistic as well.

[NorthSideSox72]

Those kids were blocking the sidewalk. If that doesn't scream military grade pepper spray to the face I don't know what does.

 

I bet they were communistic as well.

Military grade pepper spray?

 

[Balta1701]

Military grade pepper spray?

There are various state-level laws regarding the intensity and volume of pepper spray containers that can be purchased privately. California, for example, limits private sales of pepper spray to 2.5 Oz, basically enough for a brief squirt. Thus, the canister deployed against these people would be illegal for private purchase, and was only available for military or police use. I can't find quickly if there is a difference in concentration, but it wouldn't surprise me if the stuff they deployed was also quite a bit more potent than what can be legally purchased privately

[NorthSideSox72]

There are various state-level laws regarding the intensity and volume of pepper spray containers that can be purchased privately. California, for example, limits private sales of pepper spray to 2.5 Oz, basically enough for a brief squirt. Thus, the canister deployed against these people would be illegal for private purchase, and was only available for military or police use. I can't find quickly if there is a difference in concentration, but it wouldn't surprise me if the stuff they deployed was also quite a bit more potent than what can be legally purchased privately

I"m fully aware of the fact that police can purchase chemical agents at different concentrations and volumes than private citizens can. I just never thought about it as a military thing, other than military police.