Penn State horror story

[Milkman delivers]

I get where you're coming from now, but wouldn't the common sense thing be to figure that a person was talking about the college? I mean, if you're going to assume that someone is talking about the entire state, then why not the entire country, or the world? I feel like the onus should be on someone to specify that they mean the entire state, when (I'm guessing) the vast majority of people will automatically assume that the place of Paterno's employment is the subject.

 

f*** it, it's Friday and Raiders of the Lost Ark is on. I don't think we have an argument anymore

[Soxbadger]

Balta,

 

Do you really believe that?

 

Tressel got axed at OSU, you really dont think Paterno could have been fired at PSU (odd especially as Paterno was fired when these facts came to light.) The simple fact is, that while PSU was a sacred cow to some, to others it was a kobe beef ready to be cooked. You dont think Tom Ridge's Presidential Campaign in 2000 would have sounded a lot better if he had "the man who brought the PSU rape scandal to light", you dont think there is some Senator or person in Pennsylvania who would have loved to further their own career at the expense of PSU?

 

As I said, Im done with this thread. I have no problem with anyone, I dont take any of this personally. I hope that the facts come to light, I hope that all those involved are held responsible and I hope that one day the facts/truth come out. I just personally feel that Im not getting a lot of thought provoking discussion here, so instead of just fighting 20 people for the sake of it, Id rather quit.

 

Milkman,

 

Its a fair response and I never asked you to clarify. I just always meant the state, because in order for a District Attorney to get shut down or a police investigation (im talking 1998) it has to come from someone in the Govt. Even the BOT/President of PSU would have to make a call to someone in power to get that done. Thats where I was coming from, that you cant just make that go away as a College, to many star players etc go down for way less because the school and the police/etc dont see eye to eye.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Soxbadger

[Balta1701]

First of all, I'm not attacking you. I just brought up people creating straw man arguments and happened to use one of your quotes.

 

Secondly, I thought it was common sense that I meant Paterno was the most powerful person at the college, not the state. I can't speak for Balta. That part seems a little ridiculous to me as well.

If a governor had made it his personal mission to bring down Paterno in the mid 90s, wouldn't Paterno have won?

 

We're talking about a legendary coach here. He's not making state policy, but if he wanted a problem to go away, it would go away, whatever level it was at, and everyone here knows that's how a program like that runs.

 

Sad thing is, that's not always a bad thing. College kids do stupid things, and if JP could help some of them get second chances because he could make everyone look the other way, great. But there's also a level of trust where you don't expect the program to cover for a child rapist. You expect a legend to be better than that.

[DrunkBomber]

Drunkbomber.

 

Points up.

 

but while their positions are literally above Paterno, nobody was "above" Paterno.

 

Still to this moment, people believe that Joe Paterno had the ability to cover this up. Paterno was not the most powerful man in the state of Pennsylvania, my guess is that there are even a few people in the Govt. who dont like PSU, maybe they went to Pitt, Temple or Penn.

 

The Governor in 1998 was Tom Ridge, who I assume was also more powerful than Joe Paterno.

Seriously, you clearly added "the whole state of Pennsylvania" to try to make your point sound better. How much power JoePa had at PSU is something that can be argued forever but as you are aware of youre arguing with people that think he possessed a lot of power on campus. Out of curiosity how much power do you believe he had? Do you think if he wanted to put an end to Sanduskys shenanigans that he wouldnt be able to? If thats what youre arguing then even though I think its ridiculous at least youd be making a stance that opposes what people in here are saying.

 

You seem to be taking what people are saying to the furthest extreme possible to prove a point. If someone says that JoePa had enough power to put a stop to it if he wanted to it turns into JoePa is the most powerful man in PA and he is single handidly trying to cover it up. I dont think there are many people who will try to say that JoePa orchestrated an enormous cover up by himself, but at the same time Im sure a lot of people would claim that JoePa certainly played his part in it. It still doesnt change the fact that all the stuff you quoted yourself saying from November are the most obvious statements that most people here didnt think needed to even be said, let alone quoted months later in an "I told you so" attempt.

[Balta1701]

Balta,

 

Do you really believe that?

 

Tressel got axed at OSU, you really dont think Paterno could have been fired at PSU (odd especially as Paterno was fired when these facts came to light.) The simple fact is, that while PSU was a sacred cow to some, to others it was a kobe beef ready to be cooked. You dont think Tom Ridge's Presidential Campaign in 2000 would have sounded a lot better if he had "the man who brought the PSU rape scandal to light", you dont think there is some Senator or person in Pennsylvania who would have loved to further their own career at the expense of PSU?

 

As I said, Im done with this thread. I have no problem with anyone, I dont take any of this personally. I hope that the facts come to light, I hope that all those involved are held responsible and I hope that one day the facts/truth come out. I just personally feel that Im not getting a lot of thought provoking discussion here, so instead of just fighting 20 people for the sake of it, Id rather quit.

 

Milkman,

 

Its a fair response and I never asked you to clarify. I just always meant the state, because in order for a District Attorney to get shut down or a police investigation (im talking 1998) it has to come from someone in the Govt. Even the BOT/President of PSU would have to make a call to someone in power to get that done. Thats where I was coming from, that you cant just make that go away as a College, to many star players etc go down for way less because the school and the police/etc dont see eye to eye.

Are you kidding, you really think "bringing down Paterno" would be a good thing for a politician?

 

[Milkman delivers]

If a governor had made it his personal mission to bring down Paterno in the mid 90s, wouldn't Paterno have won?

 

We're talking about a legendary coach here. He's not making state policy, but if he wanted a problem to go away, it would go away, whatever level it was at, and everyone here knows that's how a program like that runs.

 

Sad thing is, that's not always a bad thing. College kids do stupid things, and if JP could help some of them get second chances because he could make everyone look the other way, great. But there's also a level of trust where you don't expect the program to cover for a child rapist. You expect a legend to be better than that.

 

I can see a guy in that position having some pull, enough to get a kid out of a DUI or something. I don't think any coach would have the pull to prevent a governor from looking into a child rape.

 

Badger, I think it got as high as the DA, and he made the choice (most likely influenced by PSU folks). I don't think it necessarily has to involve anyone else higher than him. I even went into some detail on how the 1998 investigation could have simply been deemed a stupid mistake by the police/DA and that's why they decided not to pursue it, and without having to be influenced directly by PSU people. It's unlikely, but it could be. I'm thinking it's a cover up by a group of somewhere between 5 to ~20 people (depending on how many police were involved). And with the police, I don't believe they have to be part of a cover up at all. Once they give the information to the DA and he shuts it down, I don't know many cops that will risk their jobs to go against a DA's decision. That makes them wrong, definitely. But that doesn't make them part of the cover up.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Milkman delivers

[Soxbadger]

Drunkbomber,

 

The real problem is that Im not saying anything in your post at all.

 

From the beginning Ive clearly said that I thought PSU was firing Paterno and putting him the spotlight as an attempt to appease the masses with blood. I dont know Paterno's power on PSU campus, I assume its substantial, but like every other coach, has its limits (that being extreme illegal activity).

 

Do I think Paterno had the power to stop an investigation in 1998?

 

No

 

Do I think Paterno or PSU had the power to call someone in 1998 and stop the investigation?

 

Yes

 

Would I be tearing apart every file from 1998 until I got to the bottom?

 

Yes

 

"I told you so" attempt.

 

Did you even see the context of the post?

 

here is why I posted:

 

This is so f***ed up. Badger should tell me more about there not being a cover up.

 

So it was anything but a told you so post. I had stopped posting here for over a week, and had no intention of returning to the thread because I dont care if I was right. If you think that I care about these online arguments, you really have not read a lot of my posts. Half the time I just completely forget about them once I get home from work and am not just killing time.

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

Are you kidding, you really think "bringing down Paterno" would be a good thing for a politician?

 

If it's "bringing down the Paterno who helped to cover for a child molester", then yes.

[Balta1701]

I can see a guy in that position having some pull, enough to get a kid out of a DUI or something. I don't think any coach would have the pull to prevent a governor from looking into a child rape.

but when the program says they'll take care of it, that's normal. They say it's not a probl, they're expected to take care of it.

 

[DrunkBomber]

Drunkbomber,

 

The real problem is that Im not saying anything in your post at all.

 

From the beginning Ive clearly said that I thought PSU was firing Paterno and putting him the spotlight as an attempt to appease the masses with blood. I dont know Paterno's power on PSU campus, I assume its substantial, but like every other coach, has its limits (that being extreme illegal activity).

 

Do I think Paterno had the power to stop an investigation in 1998?

 

No

 

Do I think Paterno or PSU had the power to call someone in 1998 and stop the investigation?

 

Yes

 

Would I be tearing apart every file from 1998 until I got to the bottom?

 

Yes

 

 

 

Did you even see the context of the post?

 

here is why I posted:

 

 

So it was anything but a told you so post. I had stopped posting here for over a week, and had no intention of returning to the thread because I dont care if I was right. If you think that I care about these online arguments, you really have not read a lot of my posts. Half the time I just completely forget about them once I get home from work and am not just killing time.

Fair enough

[Soxbadger]

Milkman,

 

I have no idea who did what. I just doubt Paterno is the one who made the call, maybe it was one of the other 2, but I just think it had to be more.

 

Balta,

 

Do I think its good for someones career to be the person who helped to uncover the worst rape scandal in College History?

 

Yes, yes I do think that helps.

 

Or do you think that Hoover didnt get a career boost for allegedly solving the mystery of the Lindergh baby.

[Balta1701]

If it's "bringing down the Paterno who helped to cover for a child molester", then yes.

How many defenders does he have just in here? Let alone in that state. Thatd end any politicians career in that state if their name was personally attached, rather than just as part of the trustees.

[Milkman delivers]

but when the program says they'll take care of it, that's normal. They say it's not a probl, they're expected to take care of it.

 

Huh? Not sure I follow.

[Milkman delivers]

How many defenders does he have just in here? Let alone in that state. Thatd end any politicians career in that state if their name was personally attached, rather than just as part of the trustees.

 

We have to think about this is terms of it being in 1998. If it were to happen back then, with Paterno still alive and the possibility of providing solid proof that he actively participated in a cover up, I think it'd help a politician's career.

[Milkman delivers]

Milkman,

 

I have no idea who did what. I just doubt Paterno is the one who made the call, maybe it was one of the other 2, but I just think it had to be more.

 

Balta,

 

Do I think its good for someones career to be the person who helped to uncover the worst rape scandal in College History?

 

Yes, yes I do think that helps.

 

Or do you think that Hoover didnt get a career boost for allegedly solving the mystery of the Lindergh baby.

 

I think we're basically in agreement here. I'm glad it only took about two pages, haha.

[Soxbadger]

Well its because I just assumed I knew your argument, not exactly a good place to start a discussion.

[DrunkBomber]

No Steve, lets set the record straight. While you were busy believing that Paterno was the most powerful man in Pennsylvania and that it was all Paterno, I was the only one saying that there was no way it was just Paterno, and that Paterno was being used as a scapegoat to cover up for more powerful people.

 

Lets start at the beginning, in early November, I was already saying that it was Penn State, not Paterno.

The bold is what Im referring to. You were the only one who said it went beyond Paterno? Are you kidding me? You are actually claiming that you are the only person in this entire thread who wasnt claiming that Paterno was the only one to blame here?

[Milkman delivers]

Well its because I just assumed I knew your argument, not exactly a good place to start a discussion.

 

I could have been clearer, I suppose

 

The bold is what Im referring to. You were the only one who said it went beyond Paterno? Are you kidding me? You are actually claiming that you are the only person in this entire thread who wasnt claiming that Paterno was the only one to blame here?

 

I'm pretty sure he already went over that. Let's not start it all up again

[Soxbadger]

Do people even read my posts?

 

I swear I already answered that 2 days ago.

[DrunkBomber]

Do people even read my posts?

 

I swear I already answered that 2 days ago.

Thats not the point. You questioned my "I told you so" statement so I wanted to point out where it was coming from because thats exactly what you were attempting to do.

[Soxbadger]

Are you seriously arguing with me on the intent of my own post?

 

The statement wasnt an "I told you so" it was to show how absolutely idiotic Steve's statement was. That not only was it wrong, but I was one of the few people who constantly harped about looking for a bigger cover up, so to say I argued there was no cover up was absolutely absurd.

 

I thought that the reader would see that it was nothing more than a tool to attack Steve. Which is why when you read it in the context of the post it is only directed at Steve and his comment.

 

I really dont know what else to say, to me its so clear.

[DrunkBomber]

If you read the next few posts after it Im not the only one who "misinterpreted" the intent of the statement until you backpeddled off of it. Youve been cherry picking random things people have said in this entire thread and using them on anyone who opposes your opinion. A few minutes ago you used something that balta said about how much power joepa had in an attempt to disprove something I said but then you get all worked up when I use a direct quote of something you said that proclaimed you were the only person who had this brilliant insight the whole time when in reality your statement was the same level of awful you were claiming steves was. But apparently when you say dumb comments its the readers fault.

[Soxbadger]

I think its just easier to say, believe what you want. This really is annoying.

[Texsox]

Is it possible to believe that Paterno is guilty by not doing enough, and that the condemnation of him as a person is out of scale as compared to others who were also involved without defending him?

 

Mike McQueary and Mrs. Sandusky IMHO should be the ones that receive the highest condemnation.

 

But his name is forgotten because he told someone famous.

[Milkman delivers]

Is it possible to believe that Paterno is guilty by not doing enough, and that the condemnation of him as a person is out of scale as compared to others who were also involved without defending him?

 

Mike McQueary and Mrs. Sandusky IMHO should be the ones that receive the highest condemnation.

 

But his name is forgotten because he told someone famous.

 

First of all, no it isn't. Perhaps in the grander scheme of things on the national level, but not here. Every single poster here knows and has stated that he deserved to be fired and condemned as well as Paterno. And yes, the first part is possible. The problem is that many of the people who are stating the italicized part are defending him as well. This is, again, at the national level, but also somewhat in this thread.