Penn State horror story

[Balta1701]

[derail]prosecutors seem to be immune from intentional misconduct, so probably[/derail]

what about civil liabilities?

[StrangeSox]

I wouldn't be surprised in the least. But I don't like the fact that we're being told to give Paterno some leeway until we find out the results, but we should be angry at the police for doing nothing when there might also be evidence that allows them to be seen in a much better light.

 

See, that's the thing. We can imagine scenarios that make the police look less-bad pretty easily. That's not true for McQueary, Paterno or PSU admin.

[Steve9347]

I don't give a s*** what he heard. "Hey Boss, I heard from somebody the other day that Rowand44 was dry-humping a 10-year old." I'm not sprinting over to the police station over some s*** like that.

Thanks for stopping by, now feel free to go.

[StrangeSox]

what about civil liabilities?

 

I think they're completely immune, even when they deliberately withhold evidence in a capital punishment case that later gets thrown out of court.

 

edit: recent SCOTUS decision shielding prosecutors http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases...mp-v-goldstein/

Edited November 9, 2011 by StrangeSox

[RockRaines]

See, that's the thing. We can imagine scenarios that make the police look less-bad pretty easily. That's not true for McQueary, Paterno or PSU admin.

I think its quite the opposite for the PSU folk, I think as more details come out they are going to look much much worse.

[StrangeSox]

Thanks for stopping by, now feel free to go.

welcome to 12 pages ago, steve.

[iamshack]

Again, not really that outlandish. People in positions of power, especially in the sports world, get lots and lots of passes for their actions.

 

But really this misses the point of coming up with a hypothetical. Would I have envisioned this exact scenario? No, of course not. But that's different from taking an existing scenario and exploring different avenues and results that can cast people in different lights.

 

 

 

Because that's not what you started out with. It bothers me (and others) to see some weak excuses being thrown out there for Paterno's inaction. Your position wasn't that "I don't know enough, not going to judge," but that people who expected more out of Paterno were being hypocritical, that he's just a football coach and that others deserve much, much more of the blame (uncontroversial to anyone here, btw).

 

edit: I do want to retract my claims of you trying to "deflect" with the media thing though. You were making a legitimate issue of this in your first post on the issue.

Well, I think inaction happens all the time. I think it happens far more than we would like to believe. I think people see harm and crimes and terrible, terrible things happening all the time and either do the legal minimum, don't do anything at all, or certainly don't do what they would have claimed to do before encountering the situation.

 

I had a member of the clergy try some very shady s*** on me at a university I attended. I am sure I wasn't the only one he did it to, honestly. As a matter of fact, he was indeed banished from the university for his inappropriate actions towards young men.

 

This man was a family friend of ours. My brother had known him for years. I came home after the incident and my own mother did not believe this man could possibly have tried something on me. My brother did not believe me either. I left it there. I did not report it to police. I did not report it to school authorities. I figured why would the police or the school authorities believe me if my own family did not? Not until later did my family believe me when this guy was forced to leave.

 

Now I don't want to pretend as though I was a victim likes these kids were. But this guy would have tried to make me one had I allowed it. It's really some sick s*** when you find this out about someone you trusted, someone you were friends with or close to. Not everyone has the stomach to try to bring them to justice for their sickness. I guess I should have. I guess I might have saved some other person from having this guy try something sick on them.

 

But do I feel as though I should be condemned? Or that it was a moral failure of mine? No. I think this is a lot more complicated for a person to be involved with than you guys would like to believe.

 

[Steve9347]

He did his due diligence at the time that has been deemed appropriate. Yeah, in total hindsight he should've done more. But it's not nearly as black and white as some are making it out to be.

Actually, it is. We as a society, if nothing more, have the responsibility to protect children. Those who think Paterno has done nothing wrong clearly have very low moral standards.

[Milkman delivers]

Well, I think inaction happens all the time. I think it happens far more than we would like to believe. I think people see harm and crimes and terrible, terrible things happening all the time and either do the legal minimum, don't do anything at all, or certainly don't do what they would have claimed to do before encountering the situation.

 

I had a member of the clergy try some very shady s*** on me at a university I attended. I am sure I wasn't the only one he did it to, honestly. As a matter of fact, he was indeed banished from the university for his inappropriate actions towards young men.

 

This man was a family friend of ours. My brother had known him for years. I came home after the incident and my own mother did not believe this man could possibly have tried something on me. My brother did not believe me either. I left it there. I did not report it to police. I did not report it to school authorities. I figured why would the police or the school authorities believe me if my own family did not? Not until later did my family believe me when this guy was forced to leave.

 

Now I don't want to pretend as though I was a victim likes these kids were. But this guy would have tried to make me one had I allowed it. It's really some sick s*** when you find this out about someone you trusted, someone you were friends with or close to. Not everyone has the stomach to try to bring them to justice for their sickness. I guess I should have. I guess I might have saved some other person from having this guy try something sick on them.

 

But do I feel as though I should be condemned? Or that it was a moral failure of mine? No. I think this is a lot more complicated for a person to be involved with than you guys would like to believe.

 

I understand where you're coming from, as I would probably not know what to do if I were a child in that situation. I'm assuming you were a child, though. And these people who did nothing were not children. They were full-grown men in positions of power. There is quite a difference.

[StrangeSox]

Well, I think inaction happens all the time. I think it happens far more than we would like to believe. I think people see harm and crimes and terrible, terrible things happening all the time and either do the legal minimum, don't do anything at all, or certainly don't do what they would have claimed to do before encountering the situation.

 

I had a member of the clergy try some very shady s*** on me at a university I attended. I am sure I wasn't the only one he did it to, honestly. As a matter of fact, he was indeed banished from the university for his inappropriate actions towards young men.

 

This man was a family friend of ours. My brother had known him for years. I came home after the incident and my own mother did not believe this man could possibly have tried something on me. My brother did not believe me either. I left it there. I did not report it to police. I did not report it to school authorities. I figured why would the police or the school authorities believe me if my own family did not? Not until later did my family believe me when this guy was forced to leave.

 

Now I don't want to pretend as though I was a victim likes these kids were. But this guy would have tried to make me one had I allowed it. It's really some sick s*** when you find this out about someone you trusted, someone you were friends with or close to. Not everyone has the stomach to try to bring them to justice for their sickness. I guess I should have. I guess I might have saved some other person from having this guy try something sick on them.

 

But do I feel as though I should be condemned? Or that it was a moral failure of mine? No. I think this is a lot more complicated for a person to be involved with than you guys would like to believe.

 

Absolutely not.

 

Victim shaming a a very serious issue in abuse and harassment cases and significantly different from the situation Paterno was in. In fact it comes right back to the central issue in abuse situations: power. The problem for Joe is that no one really had more power than him to press this issue.

 

[Steve9347]

Read the Grand Jury report which has nothing to do with the Media. Then try and blame them.

That would require J4L to actually read something and not come in and start acting like he's smarter than everyone.

[StrangeSox]

I understand where you're coming from, as I would probably not know what to do if I were a child in that situation. I'm assuming you were a child, though. And these people who did nothing were not children. They were full-grown men in positions of power. There is quite a difference.

 

shack said university, so he was nominally an adult.

 

Incidents of abuse and harassment are almost certainly underreported due to situations exactly like what shack described, and it is not the victims' fault. It's the fault of people who refuse to follow up if a victim does come forward or who refuse to speak up and follow through on the issue if they witness it.

[StrangeSox]

on that note I should probably go get some actual work done, I've wasted enough time today on pointless internets arguments.

[iamshack]

I understand where you're coming from, as I would probably not know what to do if I were a child in that situation. I'm assuming you were a child, though. And these people who did nothing were not children. They were full-grown men in positions of power. There is quite a difference.

I'm more speaking to the fact that when you find something like this out about someone you've known and trusted for a long time...it tends to be shocking...tends to be mind-blowing. It shakes you out of what the smart or best course of action might be, because of what it makes you feel about yourself...about this person...and I think it leads to just wanting to escape the situation and get away from it. Regardless of whether that is the cowardly thing to do or the easiest thing to do, I think the alternative...to contemplate the truth...it sort of leads to inaction or paralysis. I know it sounds hard to believe, but I can understand why Paterno would want to just report it and never think about it again. Again, not condoning it by any means, but I'm just not going to be one to jump on the condemnation train on this one either.

[TaylorStSox]

I just can't help imagining the conversation.

 

"Coach Paterno, I don't know how to tell you this, but I walked into the locker room shower last night and saw Coach Sandusky ass raping a 10 year old boy." How do you not act? Telling your boss just is not enough. It's that simple. There's infinite blame to go around and Paterno is right near the top.

[Steve9347]

What the hell is a "powerful" eyewitness.? lol. Did you see it happen or not? Again, the media doing what they do best.

And you are doing what you do best.

[RockRaines]

If JoePa was told about major NCAA violations and only told the AD who then did nothing to report the violations and then they were reported by an outside source to the NCAA eventually, would people be calling for JoePa's head? I think they would, and that is a far less serious issue then what actually happened.

[Steve9347]

Dammit, people, this is children being raped. Anyone who thinks JoePa & Co did nothing wrong by doing the absolute least required by law (though they may not have) is just insane.

 

Also, Joe Pa's little ra-ra session on his lawn today, finishing with "Beat Nebraska!" followed by cheers from mindless idiots is everything that's wrong with the world.

 

"These poor victims. Beat Nebraska!"

[iamshack]

I just can't help imagining the conversation.

 

"Coach Paterno, I don't know how to tell you this, but I walked into the locker room shower last night and saw Coach Sandusky ass raping a 10 year old boy." How do you not act? Telling your boss just is not enough. It's that simple. There's infinite blame to go around and Paterno is right near the top.

Ok, now substitute Coach Sandusky with someone you have known for 30 years...that you never suspected this of...and that you know has had ample opportunity to be around young, naked men for that entire time.

 

My guess is Paterno was extremely horrified and probably had a lot more situations than the one reported to him flash through his mind.

 

Some things are really almost too difficult to comprehend.

[RockRaines]

I just can't help imagining the conversation.

 

"Coach Paterno, I don't know how to tell you this, but I walked into the locker room shower last night and saw Coach Sandusky ass raping a 10 year old boy." How do you not act? Telling your boss just is not enough. It's that simple. There's infinite blame to go around and Paterno is right near the top.

And this was 4 years after he first learned of Sandusky's behavior with children and he was forced to resign. Their next action was ban him from visiting campus with children. Again another 5 years passed with more victims including probably the worst case.

[RockRaines]

Ok, now substitute Coach Sandusky with someone you have known for 30 years...that you never suspected this of...and that you know has had ample opportunity to be around young, naked men for that entire time.

 

My guess is Paterno was extremely horrified and probably had a lot more situations than the one reported to him flash through his mind.

 

Some things are really almost too difficult to comprehend.

But it was the SECOND time they heard about this. Fool me once, shame on you....

[Steve9347]

Next we will compare him to the German SS and Heinrich Himmler.

That took long. From "did not report the rape of minors" to "Hitler". Congratulations.

[Jenksismyhero]

Actually, it is. We as a society, if nothing more, have the responsibility to protect children. Those who think Paterno has done nothing wrong clearly have very low moral standards.

 

This is such crap. He made some mistakes. He's not the monster at the center of this.

[iamshack]

But it was the SECOND time they heard about this. Fool me once, shame on you....

No, what I am saying is that he probably knew by then and was horrified to come to the conclusion he did. Which is why he completely disassociated (and my guess is probably was absolutely sickened) himself with Sandusky and just wanted to not even have to think about what might have gone on over the course of the last 30 years. He turned it over to someone else to deal with and unfortunately it was not ever appropriately handled. Not by the administration, nor the legal authorities.

[Balta1701]

Ok, now substitute Coach Sandusky with someone you have known for 30 years...that you never suspected this of...and that you know has had ample opportunity to be around young, naked men for that entire time.

 

My guess is Paterno was extremely horrified and probably had a lot more situations than the one reported to him flash through his mind.

 

Some things are really almost too difficult to comprehend.

And now that everything is out in the open, now that everything has been revealed...I could accept that. I could accept that he was simply shell-shocked at the time. I really could believe that.

 

But if that's the explanation, if that's exactly what happened, then he needs to resign. That means he made a mistake, and now that everyone out there understands the mistake he made, he needs to take the step to show that he's coming to grips with his own actions. End his involvement in the story, get out of the way, and let Penn State deal with the many more hard days ahead without having to worry about him.