Steve9347 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:42 AM) If Paterno was part of any cover up, not only should he be fired, he should be prosecuted criminally. The only argument Im making, is its way to early to tell right now what exactly happened. I think this puzzle is pretty easy to figure out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 10:30 AM) One thing I can say is that I'm not surprised at all by the posters defending Paterno and attacking the decision to fire him. It's the exact posters I would have suspected would do so. What exactly is this supposed to mean? What are you trying to imply? There is basically one person here arguing against the firing of Paterno, and that is SB, and he's just pimping his legal knowledge. Some of of have pointed out the media presentation is skewed and bs, some of us have pointed out that the focus should remain on Sandusky and not 95% on Paterno. Some of us have pointed out that the person who witnessed the crime, the Administration, the President of the University, the campus police, the local police, the charity and its' board, the DA...were ALL in a much better position to handle this situation than Joe Paterno was. Much more qualified and with much more authority. Yes, Joe Paterno, at one time anyways, may have been the most powerful member of the University's FOOTBALL program. NOT the University. Stop confusing the two. To compare Joe Paterno to the freaking President of the University, in regards to their culpability is ridiculous. To compare Joe Paterno to the local police and the DA, in terms of culpability, is ridiculous. Yes, Paterno should have done more, and he should be fired. I think everyone here but SB has admitted those two things. But the media is using Paterno as a lightning rod here, and to me, it's wrong. But I don't take kindly to some kind of implication by you, Milk, even if I am not even sure what the hell you're trying to imply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Soxfest @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:36 AM) There is no way McQuery should be allowed on the sidelines to coach Saturday! I'll add another voice onto this. Clean the **** house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:45 AM) Kyle, Have you read the testimony? That is a serious question, because Ive been asking for 2 days to be linked to the transcript and so far no one has. Max, Youre correct I dont know. But I have yet to hear that Paterno was called in by the trustees to give his account. Which would seemingly be the first thing Id do if something like this happened regarding an employee of 50 years. I havent read the whole thing, but I have read a lot of it. And it is disturbing to say the least. You have your legal hat on, thats fine. I only hope when the facts come out, we can come back to this and one of us can admit they were wrong. I know I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Wait, so the whole NCAA knew and didn't say anything? That is a massive leap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 12:34 PM) For being such a smart lawyer he fails to see that we aren't discussing guilt during a criminal trial, but only the grounds for termination of an employee. Technically he violated the PSU employee code of conduct and also an NCAA violation. But hey, not everyone can be a lawyer. Just to bring this to your attention, the employee code of conduct is just a bs exculpatory clause that means jack s*** in court. I'm not sure of the NCAA violation because I forgot which it was, but the employee code is nonsense. I'm not arguing that he shouldn't be fired, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Iamshack, Im not arguing Paterno shouldnt be fired. Im arguing that Paterno at least deserves a chance to respond to this, before hes made out to be a monster by everyone. Maybe he is a monster, maybe its worse than what we even imagine. But its god damn America, and he deserves the chance to tell his story, before everyone proclaims him guilty. Its not about pimping legal knowledge, its about how screwed the media makes our system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:45 AM) Kyle, Have you read the testimony? That is a serious question, because Ive been asking for 2 days to be linked to the transcript and so far no one has. Max, Youre correct I dont know. But I have yet to hear that Paterno was called in by the trustees to give his account. Which would seemingly be the first thing Id do if something like this happened regarding an employee of 50 years. While i appreciate the intellectual exercise you are trying to take people on here, you are pretty much wasting your time here. And that is coming from someone who is always wrapped up in stupid arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Kyle, When the facts come out, I will then make an informed decision. Right now Im not saying Paterno should or should not be fired, just we need more information about his role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:48 AM) Just to bring this to your attention, the employee code of conduct is just a bs exculpatory clause that means jack s*** in court. I'm not sure of the NCAA violation because I forgot which it was, but the employee code is nonsense. I'm not arguing that he shouldn't be fired, however. Court for what? I said grounds for termination, that's all. Is he suing for his job back or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 12:49 PM) Iamshack, Im not arguing Paterno shouldnt be fired. Im arguing that Paterno at least deserves a chance to respond to this, before hes made out to be a monster by everyone. Maybe he is a monster, maybe its worse than what we even imagine. But its god damn America, and he deserves the chance to tell his story, before everyone proclaims him guilty. Its not about pimping legal knowledge, its about how screwed the media makes our system. This has been out for several days now. Joe Paterno has issued statements including apologies, and has admitted in those statements that he did not do as much as he should. If Joe Paterno had more to say, had something else to say that could have defended his actions, he has already had a chance to say that and chose not to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 SS2k, I know I am, I really should stop posting. But there is a part of me that believes if just 1 person can see that Paterno deserves the chance to defend himself before we proclaim him guilty, than it was worth it. I truly believe that we as a society must fight for "innocent until proven guilty", because it is so easy to just call people guilty. You dont think its easier for me to sit here and say "Screw Paterno he should rot in hell" Of course it is, but the easy road isnt always the right road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:49 AM) Im arguing that Paterno at least deserves a chance to respond to this, before hes made out to be a monster by everyone. I believe his first response included "beat Nebraska!" after talking about these "poor kids who got involved" like it was their fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:51 AM) SS2k, I know I am, I really should stop posting. But there is a part of me that believes if just 1 person can see that Paterno deserves the chance to defend himself before we proclaim him guilty, than it was worth it. I truly believe that we as a society must fight for "innocent until proven guilty", because it is so easy to just call people guilty. You dont think its easier for me to sit here and say "Screw Paterno he should rot in hell" Of course it is, but the easy road isnt always the right road. Guilty of what exactly? I haven't seen one person say he is guilty of a crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:45 AM) Kyle, Have you read the testimony? That is a serious question, because Ive been asking for 2 days to be linked to the transcript and so far no one has. The grand jury report is built off of nothing but tons and tons of testimony, and has been linked in this thread like 35 times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:53 AM) Guilty of what exactly? I haven't seen one person say he is guilty of a crime. If the scenario is as I believe it to be, and a campus-wide cover-up is what allowed this story to wait 13 years to break, then I think he and many others are absolutely guilty of criminal negligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:53 AM) The grand jury report is built off of nothing but tons and tons of testimony, and has been linked in this thread like 35 times. They went to GJ with 4 victims and about 16 more have shaken out so far. But I'm sure it's all conjecture and heresay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 12:51 PM) Court for what? I said grounds for termination, that's all. Is he suing for his job back or something? He sure could, yes. He has a contract. Your employer could fire you for anything they want. That doesn't mean it would stand up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The grand jury report is hearsay and is nothing more than a lawyer spinning testimony in the most favorable light to their position. Rock, And guilty of covering this up. You keep saying Paterno was part of a cover up, that would be guilty of something. Im not talking criminal law here, Paterno wont be convicted, its not even an issue. I just assume that most of us in America would like the chance to tell our side of a story and respond to allegations, before everyone takes them as true. Unfortunately in this case Paterno is 84, and he just doesnt have the mental facilities to fight back. In my experience, there is always 2 sides to every story and neither party is ever 100% right. Usually the truth lies some where in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:54 AM) If the scenario is as I believe it to be, and a campus-wide cover-up is what allowed this story to wait 13 years to break, then I think he and many others are absolutely guilty of criminal negligence. But nobody is saying that, we are all saying there was grounds for termination at this point. That simple fact doesn't allow SB to spew his bulls*** so he is claiming that we are putting JoePa on trial for some sort of crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:57 AM) He sure could, yes. He has a contract. Your employer could fire you for anything they want. That doesn't mean it would stand up. So you are saying there weren't grounds for termination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Rock, They have 1 witness to what Paterno was told. Dont try and misconstrue the facts. The argument isnt about what Sandusky did or didnt do, its about what did McQuery tell Paterno. The only relevant facts are what did Paterno know, and based on what he knew, what should he have done. No one else was in the room with McQuery or Paterno, so there is no one else to support McQuery's testimony. It doesnt matter if 9million people say Sandusky raped them, if not one of them say Paterno saw or knew it happened. Edited November 10, 2011 by Soxbadger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 12:51 PM) SS2k, I know I am, I really should stop posting. But there is a part of me that believes if just 1 person can see that Paterno deserves the chance to defend himself before we proclaim him guilty, than it was worth it. I truly believe that we as a society must fight for "innocent until proven guilty", because it is so easy to just call people guilty. You dont think its easier for me to sit here and say "Screw Paterno he should rot in hell" Of course it is, but the easy road isnt always the right road. Here is Joe Paterno's full statement from Sunday. If true, the nature and amount of charges made are very shocking to me and all Penn Staters. While I did what I was supposed to with the one charge brought to my attention, like anyone else involved I can’t help but be deeply saddened these matters are alleged to have occurred. Sue and I have devoted our lives to helping young people reach their potential. The fact that someone we thought we knew might have harmed young people to this extent is deeply troubling. If this is true we were all fooled, along with scores of professionals trained in such things, and we grieve for the victims and their families. They are in our prayers. As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators. I understand that people are upset and angry, but let's be fair and let the legal process unfold. In the meantime I would ask all Penn Staters to continue to trust in what that name represents, continue to pursue their lives every day with high ideals and not let these events shake their beliefs nor who they are. Here's Joe Paterno's "I'll retire at the end of the season" statement. “I am absolutely devastated by the developments in this case. I grieve for the children and their families, and I pray for their comfort and relief. I have come to work every day for the last 61 years with one clear goal in mind: To serve the best interests of this university and the young men who have been entrusted to my care. I have the same goal today. That’s why I have decided to announce my retirement effective at the end of this season. At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status. They have far more important matters to address. I want to make this as easy for them as I possibly can. This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more. My goals now are to keep my commitments to my players and staff and finish the season with dignity and determination. And then I will spend the rest of my life doing everything I can to help this University.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 10, 2011 -> 11:58 AM) But nobody is saying that, we are all saying there was grounds for termination at this point. That simple fact doesn't allow SB to spew his bulls*** so he is claiming that we are putting JoePa on trial for some sort of crime. Oh yeah, for sure. We're just a message board. JoePa got canned because he and the rest of the administration allowed a monster to continue to roam campus and ruin children's lives. He certainly needed to be canned for that. He's not a "fall-guy", he deserved to be canned. No one can question this. However, I think things are much worse than we know right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 That simple fact doesn't allow SB to spew his bulls*** so he is claiming that we are putting JoePa on trial for some sort of crime. Ive never said that. Ive merely said that you are taking 1 witness (who in my opinion is the main culprit) word, over 3 other witnesses. Thats not a really good place to start, especially because McQuery is the one who saw a crime and failed to report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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