Penn State horror story

[Soxbadger]

If anything Paterno is really the one with the least culpability.

 

He didnt witness the crime, when told about it, he reported it to the people who could do something about it. You can say he should have been more active etc, but there is no evidence (so far) that Paterno ever witnessed these actions. Putting yourself in Paterno's shoes, hes known the guy for years hes never seen anything, now hes being told the guy is raping kids in the locker room?

[Kyyle23]

I hold the AD, VP, Paterno, and McQueary in the same regard. None of them took action, none of them prevented it, all of them hold some sort of responsibility in reporting this to the authorities at some point(AD/VP when they were told by Paterno, Paterno/McQueary when they realized nothing was going to be done)

 

Sandusky can be buried in a deep hole and forgotten

[RockRaines]

If anything Paterno is really the one with the least culpability.

 

He didnt witness the crime, when told about it, he reported it to the people who could do something about it. You can say he should have been more active etc, but there is no evidence (so far) that Paterno ever witnessed these actions. Putting yourself in Paterno's shoes, hes known the guy for years hes never seen anything, now hes being told the guy is raping kids in the locker room?

Twice, he was told at least twice.

 

 

"One of the most compelling and disturbing pieces of testimony in this investigation came from an eyewitness to a late-night sexual assault that allegedly occurred in March of 2002, in the locker room of the Lasch Football Building on the University Park Campus," Kelly said. "Hearing what sounded like sexual activity in the showers of a building that was supposed to be empty, a graduate assistant reportedly observed Sandusky sexually assaulting a naked boy who appeared to be about 10 years old."

 

According to the grand jury, the graduate assistant had returned to the football building that evening to put a new pair of sneakers in his locker and to retrieve some recruiting films, only to be surprised that the lights were on in the locker room and showers were running. The assistant immediately recognized Sandusky.

 

Kelly said the assistant, who was extremely upset about what he had seen, immediately called his father to relate what he had discovered. Together, the two decided that the assistant should promptly report the incident to head football coach Joe Paterno.

 

The next morning, the assistant telephoned Paterno and then went to Paterno's home to explain what he had seen. Paterno testified that he then called Penn State Athletic Director Tim Curley and met with Curley the following day, explaining that a graduate assistant had reported seeing Sandusky involved in sexual activity with a young boy in the showers at the Lasch Building.

 

Kelly said that approximately one and a half weeks later, the graduate assistant was called to a meeting with Curley and Gary Schultz, who was Senior Vice President for Finance and Business at the University. At that time, the assistant again recounted what he had witnessed Sandusky doing to a young boy in the showers of the football locker room.

 

"Despite a powerful eyewitness statement about the sexual assault of a child, this incident was not reported to any law enforcement or child protective agency, as required by Pennsylvania law," Kelly said. "Additionally, there is no indication that anyone from the university ever attempted to learn the identity of the child who was sexually assaulted on their campus or made any follow-up effort to obtain more information from the person who witnessed the attack first-hand."

 

Kelly said that rather than reporting the matter to law enforcement, Curley and Schultz agreed that Sandusky would be told he could not bring any Second Mile children into the football building. That message was also reportedly related to Dr. John Raykovitz at the Second Mile (Past Executive Director and Executive Vice-President and currently the President and CEO of the Second Mile).

 

"Despite this so-called 'ban', which was reviewed and approved by University President Graham Spanier without any further inquiry on his part, there was no effective change in Sandusky's status with the school and no limits on his access to the campus," Kelly said. "Sandusky's 'emeritus' position, alleged negotiated as part of his 1999 retirement, provided him with an office in the Lasch Football Building; unlimited access to all football facilities, including the locker room; access to all recreational facilities; a parking pass; a university Internet account; listing in the faculty directory and numerous other privileges - he had remained a regular presence on campus."

 

During testimony before the grand jury, Schultz acknowledged that he was aware of a 1998 University Police investigation that also involved allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior involving Sandusky and young boys in the football showers, but did not pursue the matter further and did not seek any additional review in light of the new report in 2002.

 

You cant tell me that Paterno wasnt aware of HIS employee's actions both in 1998 and clearly in 2002. All of those in power in State College including Paterno need to be let go. This was either one of the laziest investigations of all time or a coverup. Either way it was wrong.

[StrangeSox]

So distressed he couldn't/didn't stop it and waited an entire night to tell Paterno.

 

He's a bigger POS than Paterno in this case. However, the GJ found his testimony highly credible.

 

 

 

There was no "pattern" at the time. That's the problem here. Everyone is looking at this situation like Paterno knew this guy was a monster for years and years. As far as we know, that was the first Paterno heard of anything like that before.

 

Not a pattern of known abuse but a pattern of spending an abnormal amount of time with young boys. If you've got a friend who does that but seems on the up-and-up, and another trusted person tells you he just saw that guy raping a boy, it should set off lightbulbs in your head.

 

 

Again, hindsight makes it easier to blame. Why on earth couldn't Paterno trust his AD and a VP of the school (who happens to oversee the campus police) to do the right thing and if necessary report the allegation to the proper outside authorities?

 

Because they clearly swept it under the rug, imposed some minor hand-slaps on Sandusky and then sat on it for almost a decade? Paterno could have followed up at any time and should have. If there was truly nothing there, he wouldn't have been pushed aside, he wouldn't have been banned from specifically bringing young boys to games. Clearly something was up and they all chose to ignore it.

 

You don't know that he's credible. For all we know Paterno might have known that Sandusky and the GA had private issues and the GA was trying to get him in trouble. Pure conjecture.

 

Sure I do--the source was a current coach and former star player on Paterno's team. He would be trusted by Paterno--it wasn't some random person he'd never met making this accusations. Additionally, the GJ found his testimony to be credible. If it's credible now, it would be credible in 2002 when he was distraught and went directly to Paterno to tell him what he saw.

 

And "letting them sweep the matter under the rug" is bulls***. Give me a reason why Paterno shouldn't have trusted his AD to do the right thing.

 

There's nothing wrong with trusting him to do the right thing. But it's not like the abuse happened this March and we're finding out about it now. Paterno has had almost a decade to come forward after witnessing quiet sanctions of Sandusky but no real consequences and continued relationships with young boys.

 

[StrangeSox]

Id have to see the facts, but generally the people who report a crime are those with first hand knowledge. Not some one who heard from some one else.

 

That being said, its not about right or wrong, someone said what he did was against the law and I would have to see the law.

 

I think most reasonable people would have reported it, but Im not sure its a crime.

 

FWIW that's my take, I haven't seen anything about Paterno breaking the law aside from Rock's post.

[iamshack]

So distressed he couldn't/didn't stop it and waited an entire night to tell Paterno.

 

 

 

There was no "pattern" at the time. That's the problem here. Everyone is looking at this situation like Paterno knew this guy was a monster for years and years. As far as we know, that was the first Paterno heard of anything like that before.

 

 

 

Again, hindsight makes it easier to blame. Why on earth couldn't Paterno trust his AD and a VP of the school (who happens to oversee the campus police) to do the right thing and if necessary report the allegation to the proper outside authorities?

 

 

 

You don't know that he's credible. For all we know Paterno might have known that Sandusky and the GA had private issues and the GA was trying to get him in trouble. Pure conjecture.

 

And "letting them sweep the matter under the rug" is bulls***. Give me a reason why Paterno shouldn't have trusted his AD to do the right thing.

 

I agree with you and Tex for the most part, Jenks...my friend and I were taking this opinion all day yesterday as we watched and listened to the endless ranting all day.

 

If you were not really a sports fan, and you just sort of caught bits and pieces of this story, you might think Joe Paterno was the man who raped/molested children here. The media, in their endless quest to create the biggest story possible, has indeed made this about Joe Paterno, because he's obviously the bigger name than Sandusky or the administration. That's not fair to Paterno, nor to the victims or their families.

 

Paterno is an elderly man. We all loved to laugh about how he has no idea what the hell is going on with his football team for the last 15 years, and yet, now we expect him to be Sherlock Holmes in regards to some sick f*** on his campus. I find that a bit hypocritical.

 

Have you guys ever personally dealt with this sort of thing? Having someone you know be sick like that? It's incredibly, incredibly uncomfortable, sickening, and especially mind-blowing if you thought you knew a person that is afflicted with this sort of sickness. I think Paterno was probably so horrified and disgusted and shocked that he simply wanted someone else to deal with it. Yes, he absolutely should have done more. But Joe Paterno is a football coach. He has always been a football coach. He is not suddenly the freaking morality adjudicator, or the campus police, or the town police. He reported the matter, and turned it over to individuals who had a far, far greater responsibility, and background to handle such an indiscretion/crime, and they should have done so. Did Sandusky not admit he did this to the freaking police and they turned a blind eye? The police, who swear to protect and serve for a living? How are they not far more culpable than an elderly football coach who was probably so sickened and disgusted that he simply didn't want anything more to do with this guy?

 

I get the outrage, and I understand the severity of the crimes, but I think it is disingenuous bs for the media to trip all over themselves to see who can seem more sympathetic and outraged that these events occurred, and then spend the rest of the discussion blaming this on Joe Paterno and explaining to us why he needs to be fired.

 

Just BS in my opinion.

 

[StrangeSox]

You cant tell me that Paterno wasnt aware of HIS employee's actions both in 1998 and clearly in 2002. All of those in power in State College including Paterno need to be let go. This was either one of the laziest investigations of all time or a coverup. Either way it was wrong.

 

There's no way that the abuse started in 1998 either. You don't suddenly become a pedophile overnight. I don't know that we'll ever know if someone witnessed abuse over those past decades, unless a victim comes out.

[StrangeSox]

Paterno is an elderly man. We all loved to laugh about how he has no idea what the hell is going on with his football team for the last 15 years, and yet, now we expect him to be Sherlock Holmes in regards to some sick f*** on his campus. I find that a bit hypocritical.

 

I don't think that's a fair characterization, at least of what's going on itt. No one is expecting him to do some sort of investigation but simply to pick up the phone and alert the authorities when it becomes clear that your AD is going to let this very, very serious allegation slide. He wasn't just "some sick f***" but a long-time friend and fellow coach.

 

Have you guys ever personally dealt with this sort of thing? Having someone you know be sick like that? It's incredibly, incredibly uncomfortable, sickening, and especially mind-blowing if you thought you knew a person that is afflicted with this sort of sickness. I think Paterno was probably so horrified and disgusted and shocked that he simply wanted someone else to deal with it. Yes, he absolutely should have done more. But Joe Paterno is a football coach. He has always been a football coach. He is not suddenly the freaking morality adjudicator, or the campus police, or the town police. He reported the matter, and turned it over to individuals who had a far, far greater responsibility, and background to handle such an indiscretion/crime, and they should have done so. Did Sandusky not admit he did this to the freaking police and they turned a blind eye? The police, who swear to protect and serve for a living? How are they not far more culpable than an elderly football coach who was probably so sickened and disgusted that he simply didn't want anything more to do with this guy?

 

That Paterno wanted to wash his hands of the matter and let someone else deal with it is a moral failing, not an excuse.

 

You're right, though, that others are more culpable for the inaction that allowed continued abuse.

 

[Soxbadger]

Rock,

 

The article you quoted does not show any evidence Parterno had first hand knowledge. If the graduate assistance thought he saw a crime, he should have called the police. The second the GA didnt call the police, waited until the next day, you have a serious credibility issue.

 

If I see someone being murdered on the street, I call 9-11. I dont go home call my dad, think about what we should do, and then report it to my boss.

 

I just dont see how its logical that Paterno should have called the police (the next day when he saw nothing), when the actual eye witness did not call the police. It makes it seem like the eyewitness maybe is exaggerating, its hard to tell. No one has shown any evidence that Paterno ever witnessed any wrongdoing of any kind.

[StrangeSox]

Tex,

 

You're a teacher, and as a teacher, you have certain responsibilities to report any child abuse. That's your legal obligation. If you report that abuse to your principal, are you done? Would you wash your hands of the matter and say "well, I told my boss, that's all I can do?" Wouldn't you follow up on the matter, making attempts to ensure that the situation was being taken seriously?

 

If I see somebody doing something grossly incompetent in my line of work (engineering), it is not enough simply to tell my boss and then walk away. Not legally, and not morally. If you see a serious problem, you need to stand up and make sure that it is resolved before someone gets hurt.

[StrangeSox]

Rock,

 

The article you quoted does not show any evidence Parterno had first hand knowledge. If the graduate assistance thought he saw a crime, he should have called the police. The second the GA didnt call the police, waited until the next day, you have a serious credibility issue.

 

If I see someone being murdered on the street, I call 9-11. I dont go home call my dad, think about what we should do, and then report it to my boss.

 

I just dont see how its logical that Paterno should have called the police (the next day when he saw nothing), when the actual eye witness did not call the police. It makes it seem like the eyewitness maybe is exaggerating, its hard to tell. No one has shown any evidence that Paterno ever witnessed any wrongdoing of any kind.

 

FWIW the GJ already found his testimony to be very credible. And to be clear, people aren't giving him a pass. His (in)actions in this matter were far worse than Paterno's. On the totem pole of "s***ty people who failed to do the right thing to protect children," Paterno's at the bottom.

[Jenksismyhero]

You keep saying he should have trusted the AD to do the right thing, but here we are 9 years later and nothing was done. At what point do you stop trusting your AD to do the right thing when this guy has continued access to kids and the PSU facilities?

 

Could you sit on this info for this long and do nothing about it?

 

Honestly i'm probably going to do exactly what Paterno did. I'm going to immediately report it to the higher ups at Penn State. I'm going to trust that an AD and Senior VP of a top rated college like Penn State wouldn't try to cover it up. If the guy was banned from bringing kids to the locker room, i'm going to assume that whatever actually happened wasn't as bad as what we're finding out. Would I ask questions? Probably, but only if for some reason I don't think they did enough or that Sandusky's behavior warranted it. But the GA didn't do anything else either, so I dunno that there's any evidence that anything further happened.

 

Rock has brought up some information that might change my mind on what Paterno knew after this incident, and if that's true then maybe Paterno deserves more of the blame. But none of that was part of the grand jury proceedings, so it's all speculation. Instead of jumping to judgment like everyone else, i'll see how it plays out.

[iamshack]

I don't think that's a fair characterization, at least of what's going on itt. No one is expecting him to do some sort of investigation but simply to pick up the phone and alert the authorities when it becomes clear that your AD is going to let this very, very serious allegation slide. He wasn't just "some sick f***" but a long-time friend and fellow coach.

 

 

 

That Paterno wanted to wash his hands of the matter and let someone else deal with it is a moral failing, not an excuse.

 

You're right, though, that others are more culpable for the inaction that allowed continued abuse.

 

Yeah, and he disassociated himself with him as much as possible. People have difficulty handling these sort of things. It's a fact of life. You've known someone for half your life and then you find out something horrendously awful about them that you never knew. Sometimes it's just too much for that person to be the person reporting the crime/act. Is it a "moral failure" or whatever you'd like to call it? Sure. And we all have more failures and make bad decisions. To me, it reads like Paterno simply was so disgusted with Sandusky that he didn't want to be involved in any way, shape, or form. I am not saying I condone that position necessarily, but I can certainly understand that someone would do it.

 

Paterno is just some guy that's coached football all his life. I really understand that he works with young adults, and that part of his obligations are to shape them into men ready for life, and not just football. But that doesn't necessarily extend to personally chasing down child molesters and roasting them over an open fire for their crimes. He reported it to the appropriate authorities, and they failed to act. As did seemingly everyone involved here, including those whose sole job, the thing they do for a living, was to handle the situation. And yet this is going to revolve entirely around what Paterno did or didn't do. I just find that disingenuous.

[Milkman delivers]

Id have to see the facts, but generally the people who report a crime are those with first hand knowledge. Not some one who heard from some one else.

 

That being said, its not about right or wrong, someone said what he did was against the law and I would have to see the law.

 

I think most reasonable people would have reported it, but Im not sure its a crime.

 

Perhaps not a crime, but certainly enough to be fired over.

 

They should hire Matt Lawton.

 

Now we're talking.

[Soxbadger]

You mean a grand jury after being presented evidence was able to determine credibility?

 

Thats a lot different than someone walking into my office and saying one of my secretaries murdered a janitor last night and they didnt call the police but are telling me.

 

Maybe it happened, maybe it didnt, but its up to the person who witnessed the crime or AD/President to make that decision, not Joe Paterno who is a football coach.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Soxbadger

[southsider2k5]

Tex,

 

You're a teacher, and as a teacher, you have certain responsibilities to report any child abuse. That's your legal obligation. If you report that abuse to your principal, are you done? Would you wash your hands of the matter and say "well, I told my boss, that's all I can do?" Wouldn't you follow up on the matter, making attempts to ensure that the situation was being taken seriously?

 

If I see somebody doing something grossly incompetent in my line of work (engineering), it is not enough simply to tell my boss and then walk away. Not legally, and not morally. If you see a serious problem, you need to stand up and make sure that it is resolved before someone gets hurt.

 

There are plenty of systems where you have to do exactly that. If you step out of that line, you can be fired.

[StrangeSox]

Honestly i'm probably going to do exactly what Paterno did. I'm going to immediately report it to the higher ups at Penn State. I'm going to trust that an AD and Senior VP of a top rated college like Penn State wouldn't try to cover it up. If the guy was banned from bringing kids to the locker room, i'm going to assume that whatever actually happened wasn't as bad as what we're finding out. Would I ask questions? Probably, but only if for some reason I don't think they did enough or that Sandusky's behavior warranted it. But the GA didn't do anything else either, so I dunno that there's any evidence that anything further happened.

 

Why would you trust people in a position of power not to cover up an incident that would severely damage the reputation of their university, their famous coach and themselves?

 

Why, if a coach was banned from bringing young boys into the locker room, would you assume that the allegations of abusing young boys in locker rooms weren't that bad? How would that not set off giant flashing signs?

[Milkman delivers]

I hold the AD, VP, Paterno, and McQueary in the same regard. None of them took action, none of them prevented it, all of them hold some sort of responsibility in reporting this to the authorities at some point(AD/VP when they were told by Paterno, Paterno/McQueary when they realized nothing was going to be done)

 

Sandusky can be buried in a deep hole and forgotten

 

All of this. It's simple as hell, really.

[StrangeSox]

There are plenty of systems where you have to do exactly that. If you step out of that line, you can be fired.

 

Then you get a nice whistleblower lawsuit.

 

Do any of these systems relate to child abuse and bar you from following up on it?

[Soxbadger]

Milkman,

 

Hard to fire an employee when you as the employer are far more responsible. Thats why they are going to let him retire. Paterno reported it to his supervisors, firing him is a classic case of kicking your dog because you screwed something up.

[StrangeSox]

Milkman,

 

Hard to fire an employee when you as the employer are far more responsible. Thats why they are going to let him retire. Paterno reported it to his supervisors, firing him is a classic case of kicking your dog because you screwed something up.

 

This makes sense to me.

[southsider2k5]

Then you get a nice whistleblower lawsuit.

 

Do any of these systems relate to child abuse and bar you from following up on it?

 

Not if you violate the stated chain of command.

[Milkman delivers]

He's a bigger POS than Paterno in this case. However, the GJ found his testimony highly credible.

 

 

 

 

 

Not a pattern of known abuse but a pattern of spending an abnormal amount of time with young boys. If you've got a friend who does that but seems on the up-and-up, and another trusted person tells you he just saw that guy raping a boy, it should set off lightbulbs in your head.

 

 

 

 

Because they clearly swept it under the rug, imposed some minor hand-slaps on Sandusky and then sat on it for almost a decade? Paterno could have followed up at any time and should have. If there was truly nothing there, he wouldn't have been pushed aside, he wouldn't have been banned from specifically bringing young boys to games. Clearly something was up and they all chose to ignore it.

 

 

 

Sure I do--the source was a current coach and former star player on Paterno's team. He would be trusted by Paterno--it wasn't some random person he'd never met making this accusations. Additionally, the GJ found his testimony to be credible. If it's credible now, it would be credible in 2002 when he was distraught and went directly to Paterno to tell him what he saw.

 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with trusting him to do the right thing. But it's not like the abuse happened this March and we're finding out about it now. Paterno has had almost a decade to come forward after witnessing quiet sanctions of Sandusky but no real consequences and continued relationships with young boys.

 

We didn't know he was fondling children. We just banned him from bringing little kids onto the premises because we hate children.

[iamshack]

Milkman,

 

Hard to fire an employee when you as the employer are far more responsible. Thats why they are going to let him retire. Paterno reported it to his supervisors, firing him is a classic case of kicking your dog because you screwed something up.

Even more importantly, how the hell are the cops getting a pass here?

[Balta1701]

Not if you violate the stated chain of command.

There are more steps to this here though.

 

In Paterno's position, he has plenty of power to keep pushing the issue. Remember, this is a guy he has to deal with constantly. This is one of his assistant coaches, a person he is around probably every day. Report to the supervisor, then don't follow up? Is that what you'd really do if a person you had to deal with every day was accused by another person you knew of this sort of action?

 

Once you've gone up the chain of command, if the chain of command decides not to act, that's not necessarily the end, especially for a person in Paterno's position. A 28 year old assistant coach is easy to fire. Joe Paterno is not.