Penn State horror story

[Balta1701]

They all agreed on it as well as their president and chairman. I dont see the point. PSU's very own investigation gave the NCAA all it needed to rule on their sanctions, that is all the process they required. The NCAA sent them a notice of investigation and PSU never responded to their allegations.

 

PSU has proven time and time again they are just ridiculously stupid. How many of us on here have been through NCAA sanctions or the firing of a coach? And how many rioted?

I'm pretty sure they "all" didn't agree on it, or at least this minority didn't. And I'm pretty sure that at least one, maybe all of these trustees were recently voted onto the PSU trustees by Alums angry at their feeling that Paterno got unfair treatment/shouldn't have been fired. (Checking, yup, names match).

 

Basically, these guys are on the board because they're loud Paterno supporters and the people who voted for those slots wanted loud Paterno supporters on the board.

 

I'm trying to avoid saying anything too harsh right now, but I take a whole lot from the fact that Penn State Alums were still electing Paterno Supporters in April of this year, and those Paterno supporters are continuing their support to this day.

[zenryan]

I'm pretty sure they "all" didn't agree on it, or at least this minority didn't. And I'm pretty sure that at least one, maybe all of these trustees were recently voted onto the PSU trustees by Alums angry at their feeling that Paterno got unfair treatment/shouldn't have been fired. (Checking, yup, names match).

 

Basically, these guys are on the board because they're loud Paterno supporters and the people who voted for those slots wanted loud Paterno supporters on the board.

 

I'm trying to avoid saying anything too harsh right now, but I take a whole lot from the fact that Penn State Alums were still electing Paterno Supporters in April of this year, and those Paterno supporters are continuing their support to this day.

 

 

No, they didnt all agree on it.

 

An Outside the Lines report that is either out or about to come out is stating that the BOT never had a vote and it was 2 BOT members who came and said the school accepts full responsibility on the finding. So that is what the NCAA used as the agreement to the Freeh Report.

 

The BOT had a meeting the morning of the releasing of the Freeh Report. They didnt even have chance to read the report by the time 2 of the BOT members held the press conference.

[Soxbadger]

Good old apparent authority rears its ugly head.

 

 

[Quin]

But Tressel was removed for his heinous crime of allowing his players to sell stuff. Who would want to embarrass themselves rioting over that?

 

You forgot the tattoos. Those were evidence of the atrocity.

 

 

[RockRaines]

No, they didnt all agree on it.

 

An Outside the Lines report that is either out or about to come out is stating that the BOT never had a vote and it was 2 BOT members who came and said the school accepts full responsibility on the finding. So that is what the NCAA used as the agreement to the Freeh Report.

 

The BOT had a meeting the morning of the releasing of the Freeh Report. They didnt even have chance to read the report by the time 2 of the BOT members held the press conference.

The info I saw was that the BOT legal counsel, the president, the chairman and 8 BOT members signed off on the findings and the punishments.

 

And once again, they cannot appeal the NCAA sanctions, Emmert said as much. I dont foresee a federation judge placing an injunction on the NCAA penalties unless that judge is a Paterno.

 

Also, once again, PSU is clearly only worried about the state of their football team.

[Balta1701]

Also, once again, PSU is clearly only worried about the state of their football team.

And the other thing that ought to be perfectly clear...this applies to a very large portion of the Penn State Community. Large enough to elect trustees.

[cabiness42]

PSU BOT appealing NCAA sanctions today.

 

 

Not only is there no ability to appeal (waste of time) but they once again are proving they only care about football.

 

The appeal is just a formality leading up to a lawsuit. However, stop and think about this:

 

I know they won't, but just suppose that they did win their lawsuit and the penalties got overturned because of lack of due process. Then the NCAA goes through the motions of due process and decides to implement the death penalty. Is that what these people want?

 

[StrangeSox]

And the other thing that ought to be perfectly clear...this applies to a very large portion of the Penn State Community. Large enough to elect trustees.

 

I still think the NCAA should have imposed a literal death penalty on PSU. Raze the entire campus to the ground.

[Balta1701]

The appeal is just a formality leading up to a lawsuit. However, stop and think about this:

 

I know they won't, but just suppose that they did win their lawsuit and the penalties got overturned because of lack of due process. Then the NCAA goes through the motions of due process and decides to implement the death penalty. Is that what these people want?

You have to understand...they think they did nothing wrong. They think Paterno did nothing wrong. Whoever they blame, whether it's McQueary, or Spanier/Curley, they think the university did nothing wrong, they think Penn State football did nothing wrong, and most importantly Paterno did nothing wrong. The Freeh report was either totally one-sided or biased or poorly researched or lies or whatever excuse they're making.

 

It's really a perfect example of a "football culture" gone awry, gone to the extreme, which is exactly why the NCAA stepped in.

[HuskyCaucasian]

It's really a perfect example of a "football culture" gone awry, gone to the extreme, which is exactly why the NCAA stepped in.

It's a cult. It's as simple as that.

[greg775]

You have to understand...they think they did nothing wrong. They think Paterno did nothing wrong. Whoever they blame, whether it's McQueary, or Spanier/Curley, they think the university did nothing wrong, they think Penn State football did nothing wrong, and most importantly Paterno did nothing wrong. The Freeh report was either totally one-sided or biased or poorly researched or lies or whatever excuse they're making.

 

It's really a perfect example of a "football culture" gone awry, gone to the extreme, which is exactly why the NCAA stepped in.

 

This really is troubling. With Penn State appealing, it's time for the NCAA to call them on it. Go ahead and hold a trial or hearing and give them much worse penalties. It's like this at all schools with powerhouse football or basketball programs. No fans will ever believe their school did anything wrong. Or if they did, and the coaches who did the wrong doing have left, they'll always use the argument you are penalizing people that did nothing wrong.

 

[RockRaines]

This really is troubling. With Penn State appealing, it's time for the NCAA to call them on it. Go ahead and hold a trial or hearing and give them much worse penalties. It's like this at all schools with powerhouse football or basketball programs. No fans will ever believe their school did anything wrong. Or if they did, and the coaches who did the wrong doing have left, they'll always use the argument you are penalizing people that did nothing wrong.

They've already rejected it. The Freeh report is essentially the same as PSU "self reporting" violations and it was paid for and signed off by their leadership. There is no grounds of appeal for judgements based on a self report.

[Balta1701]

They've already rejected it. The Freeh report is essentially the same as PSU "self reporting" violations and it was paid for and signed off by their leadership. There is no grounds of appeal for judgements based on a self report.

Presumably now there will be some sort of court challenge I'd imagine.

[Soxbadger]

Even if they have very little, a lawsuit can still gum up the works.

 

Many people may have forgotten, but Kevin Williams and Pat Williams basically were able to stall a suspension for, I believe, 2 years by putting it into a Federal Court.

 

The only reason not to fight is to just put it behind them. Unlike the Williams, this isnt a fight where they can simply try and wait out the clock.

[RockRaines]

Even if they have very little, a lawsuit can still gum up the works.

 

Many people may have forgotten, but Kevin Williams and Pat Williams basically were able to stall a suspension for, I believe, 2 years by putting it into a Federal Court.

 

The only reason not to fight is to just put it behind them. Unlike the Williams, this isnt a fight where they can simply try and wait out the clock.

I do not believe that is the same circumstance as a sports team's membership with the NCAA. They were essentially in a lawsuit against their employer.

[Balta1701]

I do not believe that is the same circumstance as a sports team's membership with the NCAA. They were essentially in a lawsuit against their employer.

It's clearly not the same circumstance, but they can still file the papers and see if they can get a judge to listen. If it isn't summarily dismissed, then the end result would be very likely to include at least a temporary injunction against some portion of the NCAA's penalties.

 

Whether it was summarily dismissed or not would probably depend a whole lot on the actual agreements that create the NCAA, the rules under which it operates, and even its legal status in multiple states. Whether they might be able to find enough to bring a case that wouldn't be tossed out immediately, I have no idea, but there's a lot of law and likely a whole lot of agreements between Penn State and the NCAA that would have to be reviewed.

[Soxbadger]

I do not believe that is the same circumstance as a sports team's membership with the NCAA. They were essentially in a lawsuit against their employer.

 

I have no clue about the facts, Im just saying that even a dead bang winner for the NFL took 2 years after appeals. Just as an example, it can take 6 months for an appellate court to even decide if they are going to hear briefs on case. This would of course be after some sort of ruling in the lower court, which at minimum could take at least 3-6 months (30 days to answer or otherwise plead, 28 days to respond to motion for summary judgment, 14 days to reply, 14 days for hearing).

 

That is possibly a year right there, now I have no idea whether the Judge would stay the enforcement of the penalties, but this case could be extremely complicated and if PSU takes it to federal court, who knows how long it could last.

 

Now I dont really see this as a great option, but if Penn State does file a lawsuit, I just think its going to be pretty complicated and take time.

 

I understand there was a consent decree etc, but once again, I dont know the facts. If the BOT didnt follow proper protocol, it could call into question whether the person who signed the consent decree actually had authority to bind PSU.

 

Youll notice I didnt even put discovery into that time frame, which can cause further delay.

 

The point is, no one knows the facts. But lawsuits generally dont end very fast, unless there is a settlement. Which could be the actual goal here, as I doubt the NCAA wants to go through discovery, especially if PSU lawyer's start asking for information relating to other NCAA rulings. Just could be a real headache for everyone.

 

So now that I think about that angle, maybe the threat isnt bad if you are just looking to leverage a settlement.

 

Who knows.

[Balta1701]

I can't imagine the NCAA would ever consider having a settlement after a lawsuit was filed in this case. That would effectively add an entire new level of vetoes to every other one of its enforcement actions and make it pretty difficult to enforce any rules at all, because the suspensions would always be delayed for x amount of time while the court appeal went through.

 

If Penn State can force a settlement with the threat of a lawsuit that reduces their suspension or penalty substantially, then why can't Ohio State do it? And we're talking about millions of dollars in revenue associated with bowl appearances and conference titles, so there's plenty of reason to fight those legal cases.

[Soxbadger]

I can't imagine the NCAA would ever consider having a settlement after a lawsuit was filed in this case. That would effectively add an entire new level of vetoes to every other one of its enforcement actions and make it pretty difficult to enforce any rules at all, because the suspensions would always be delayed for x amount of time while the court appeal went through.

 

If Penn State can force a settlement with the threat of a lawsuit that reduces their suspension or penalty substantially, then why can't Ohio State do it? And we're talking about millions of dollars in revenue associated with bowl appearances and conference titles, so there's plenty of reason to fight those legal cases.

 

That would be the same argument any client makes as to why they shouldnt settle. The fact is you have to treat each case on its own. The uniqueness of the PSU case raises uncertainty, I never considered the NCAA settling before I typed it in that post.

 

I was just giving reasons for PSU to file, I dont know what their actual plans are.

[Kyyle23]

That would be the same argument any client makes as to why they shouldnt settle. The fact is you have to treat each case on its own. The uniqueness of the PSU case raises uncertainty, I never considered the NCAA settling before I typed it in that post.

 

I was just giving reasons for PSU to file, I dont know what their actual plans are.

 

The weird thing is, it isnt really PSU filing, is it?

[Soxbadger]

The weird thing is, it isnt really PSU filing, is it?

 

I havent even gotten into that, but theoretically a non-PSU entity could try and sue arguing that PSU could not have bound them to the settlement and therefore any consequences were unfair.

 

Basically I have no idea. This is kind of unknown territory. The only thing I can say, is that when it comes to unknown territory, courts take their sweet ass time.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Soxbadger

[Balta1701]

That would be the same argument any client makes as to why they shouldnt settle. The fact is you have to treat each case on its own. The uniqueness of the PSU case raises uncertainty, I never considered the NCAA settling before I typed it in that post.

 

I was just giving reasons for PSU to file, I dont know what their actual plans are.

Really, for the NCAA, this case is only unusual in that it involved the most grievous violations of their rules regarding oversight and creating a culture of compliance that anyone has ever seen. Regardless of the fact that there is a criminal case here whereas for example Ohio State and USC didn't have the criminal case, if the NCAA settled, it immediately sets the precedent for any other response to a rules violation.

[Soxbadger]

Really, for the NCAA, this case is only unusual in that it involved the most grievous violations of their rules regarding oversight and creating a culture of compliance that anyone has ever seen. Regardless of the fact that there is a criminal case here whereas for example Ohio State and USC didn't have the criminal case, if the NCAA settled, it immediately sets the precedent for any other response to a rules violation.

 

Its unusual because generally the argument for penalties are that the athletic team got some sort of tangible benefit from the bad behavior. It is also unusual because generally the NCAA does not suspend schools merely for a coaching/administrator breaking the law, in a way that is unrelated to sports (Bobby Petrino Arkansas, etc.)

 

I think there is a legitimate question why the NCAA is involved at all. The only connection to the NCAA is it happened on PSU property. It literally has nothing to do with competition or anything that the NCAA normally governs.

 

I have no idea, Im not even sure a school has ever sued the NCAA. There are probably hundreds of thousands of documents that govern this, Ive seen 0. This is purely theoretical.

[Balta1701]

Its unusual because generally the argument for penalties are that the athletic team got some sort of tangible benefit from the bad behavior. It is also unusual because generally the NCAA does not suspend schools merely for a coaching/administrator breaking the law, in a way that is unrelated to sports (Bobby Petrino Arkansas, etc.)

 

I think there is a legitimate question why the NCAA is involved at all. The only connection to the NCAA is it happened on PSU property. It literally has nothing to do with competition or anything that the NCAA normally governs.

 

I have no idea, Im not even sure a school has ever sued the NCAA. There are probably hundreds of thousands of documents that govern this, Ive seen 0. This is purely theoretical.

But there are specific reporting and monitoring requirements that the NCAA requires schools to meet. When a school fails to meet those, the NCAA steps in and that's when the slapdowns occur. Usually you only hear about them when someone is discovered to have done something to gain a monetary/wins advantage, rather than just covering up a crime, but it's all the same in their rules.

 

The big hit for the NCAA usually winds up being whether or not a school was promoting a "Culture of compliance". If a school avoids that, they avoid big penalties (Tennessee snuck away with no major penalties after the Bruce Pearl situation because they convinced the NCAA that they had adequate monitoring in place). Penn State literally sets a new bar for "Failing to promote a culture of compliance". People were scared that if they reported things they saw, they'd be fired.

[Soxbadger]

But there are specific reporting and monitoring requirements that the NCAA requires schools to meet. When a school fails to meet those, the NCAA steps in and that's when the slapdowns occur. Usually you only hear about them when someone is discovered to have done something to gain a monetary/wins advantage, rather than just covering up a crime, but it's all the same in their rules.

 

The big hit for the NCAA usually winds up being whether or not a school was promoting a "Culture of compliance". If a school avoids that, they avoid big penalties (Tennessee snuck away with no major penalties after the Bruce Pearl situation because they convinced the NCAA that they had adequate monitoring in place). Penn State literally sets a new bar for "Failing to promote a culture of compliance". People were scared that if they reported things they saw, they'd be fired.

 

Right but the compliance usually is connected to some sort of tangible rule breaking.

 

IE: To many phone calls, money, inappropriate contact during offseason.

 

Compliance is usually not connected to, coach breaks law unrelated to sport, administrator breaks law covering up a crime that is unrelated to sports.

 

Im trying to find another example where the NCAA put penalties on a school just for criminal conduct that was in no way related to money, and as of now I cant find one.

 

(Edit)

 

And the part about people being scared to report, that generally is more a whistle-blower federal thing, as opposed to NCAA.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Soxbadger