Sox Winter Meetings thread

[kwolf68]

Is anyone else concerned with the Sun article when they talked about Santos? They mentioned that the Os would have been in on him as well but didn't know he was available. Um, if we're going to flip him, shouldn't we let it be known he was available to get the best possible offer?

 

I just don't know why Williams wouldn't bid up the price on Santos. Having a team out there that would have been interested who wasn't even aware of Santos' availability just wreaks of bush league GM work.

 

I don't get it.

 

Every single expert on MLB Network is pretty much scratching their head over this move. Adding the fact at least 1 team confirmed to have no knowledge of player's availability just adds to the disappointment of this deal, because it likely (not guaranteed, but possible) could have brought us back a better package.

[kwolf68]

He was not being shopped. Jays have chased him for a while now.

 

But as soon as you're willing to move a player, then you exhaust all opportunities, including calling the Orioles.

 

Brutal trade.

 

[Reddy]

But as soon as you're willing to move a player, then you exhaust all opportunities, including calling the Orioles.

 

Brutal trade.

it was far from "brutal"

[kwolf68]

it was far from "brutal"

 

If other possible suitors were not contacted then it was brutal. If the Orioles were contacted and they offered a package of equal/less value then no it wasn't brutal. Why if you're willing to move a player you don't try to get the absolute most for him you can?

 

Again, this isn't necessarily a critique on the player received, rather on the common sense notion that each player moved should be moved for the absolute best package, which may not have been the case in this instance.

Edited December 7, 2011 by kwolf68

[Reddy]

If other possible suitors were not contacted then it was brutal. If the Orioles were contacted and they offered a package of equal/less value then no it wasn't brutal. Why if you're willing to move a player you don't try to get the absolute most for him you can?

 

Again, this isn't necessarily a critique on the player received, rather on the common sense notion that each player moved should be moved for the absolute best package, which may not have been the case in this instance.

because we werent shopping him! we weren't looking to trade him. We wanted Molina, and when AA said Santos, we pulled the trigger. You can't say "oh please give me a few hours to see if I can get a better deal". What kind of negotiating is that? If you feel you're getting a good deal, based on all the evaluations you've been making the last however many years, you take it. THAT'S the game. That's how it works.

[LittleHurt05]

I don't know.

 

You think people maybe think Danks is a more proven pitcher? Has post season mettle and has pitched his entire career thus far in a tough park for pitchers. Gio, while having electric stuff, hasn't done it but for 1 year plus he did it in Oakland (pitcher friendly park).

 

A move of Danks better yield a very nice haul. Danks could easily slot into the #2 or #3 spot in nearly any rotation and be counted on.

 

His home/road splits the last two years are pretty significant, but a ~3.50 ERA on the road in the AL is still pretty damn solid.

[LittleHurt05]

But then who pitches for the Orioles? Maybe they'll just let other teams setup a T.

 

How would that be any different than what they did last year?

[kwolf68]

because we werent shopping him! we weren't looking to trade him. We wanted Molina, and when AA said Santos, we pulled the trigger. You can't say "oh please give me a few hours to see if I can get a better deal". What kind of negotiating is that? If you feel you're getting a good deal, based on all the evaluations you've been making the last however many years, you take it. THAT'S the game. That's how it works.

 

 

BECAUSE we weren't "shopping him" should have been further evidence to bring in a more impressive haul. It's players you are actively trying to dump that sometimes don't bring back the good value (crappy players who are paid a lot).

 

And I don't think for a nano second that 'the game' dictates you can't tell the Jays GM that you'd like to shop Santos around if you can't get exactly what you want. If the Jays REALLY wanted him then they should have paid a better package. It's not like we have acquired this can't miss he's the next Bob Gibson prospect.

Edited December 7, 2011 by kwolf68

[Milkman delivers]

I just don't know why Williams wouldn't bid up the price on Santos. Having a team out there that would have been interested who wasn't even aware of Santos' availability just wreaks of bush league GM work.

 

I don't get it.

 

Every single expert on MLB Network is pretty much scratching their head over this move. Adding the fact at least 1 team confirmed to have no knowledge of player's availability just adds to the disappointment of this deal, because it likely (not guaranteed, but possible) could have brought us back a better package.

 

Perhaps the Sox went after Molina, not intending to offer Santos. The Blue Jays said, "you give us Santos and it's a deal." KW might not have wanted to back down off of their negotiations in order to shop Santos around, as they could possibly have lost their chance at Molina by walking away or hurt his reputation as a GM sort of in the way that Rizzo did it to KW.

 

I'm not saying that it's a good reason, but it might be something along those lines.

[Milkman delivers]

because we werent shopping him! we weren't looking to trade him. We wanted Molina, and when AA said Santos, we pulled the trigger. You can't say "oh please give me a few hours to see if I can get a better deal". What kind of negotiating is that? If you feel you're getting a good deal, based on all the evaluations you've been making the last however many years, you take it. THAT'S the game. That's how it works.

 

You said it better.

[kwolf68]

Perhaps the Sox went after Molina, not intending to offer Santos. The Blue Jays said, "you give us Santos and it's a deal." KW might not have wanted to back down off of their negotiations in order to shop Santos around, as they could possibly have lost their chance at Molina by walking away or hurt his reputation as a GM sort of in the way that Rizzo did it to KW.

 

I'm not saying that it's a good reason, but it might be something along those lines.

 

 

I can buy this. However, it has been suggested here that the Jays actively came after Santos. And how elite of a prospect is Molina that we'd be losing so much to walk away? Opinions are mixed on him...some say future relief pitcher, others say middle of rotation. I've seen no one saying he's a top end starter.

 

It is clear (without me seeing him I'll admit) that he has impressive control, a big time splitter...but the other pitches don't appear to grade as high.

 

The one thing I DO Like and this is the ONLY thing I like is that Keith Law doesn't like the trade.

 

[Milkman delivers]

I can buy this. However, it has been suggested here that the Jays actively came after Santos. And how elite of a prospect is Molina that we'd be losing so much to walk away? Opinions are mixed on him...some say future relief pitcher, others say middle of rotation. I've seen no one saying he's a top end starter.

 

It is clear (without me seeing him I'll admit) that he has impressive control, a big time splitter...but the other pitches don't appear to grade as high.

 

The one thing I DO Like and this is the ONLY thing I like is that Keith Law doesn't like the trade.

 

Maybe enough that KW and company jumped at the opportunity?

[kwolf68]

Maybe enough that KW and company jumped at the opportunity?

 

That seems unlikely, but I also can't deny that possibility either.

 

I would like to hear how negotiations went and would love for a reporter to ask Kenny why he didn't approach other teams who may have been interested in Santos.

 

Until then, we are all left to speculate.

 

-Some think Williams blew the trade, coulda had more, he sold the player too soon and didn't exhaust all potential suitors.

-Others like it, even are arguing that Santos wasn't that good anyway and this guy is the next Pedro Martinez

 

 

 

[sircaffey]

because we werent shopping him! we weren't looking to trade him. We wanted Molina, and when AA said Santos, we pulled the trigger. You can't say "oh please give me a few hours to see if I can get a better deal". What kind of negotiating is that? If you feel you're getting a good deal, based on all the evaluations you've been making the last however many years, you take it. THAT'S the game. That's how it works.

Yeah, every trade offer is constructed and accepted in 2 minutes, obviously.

 

This club has 3 or 4 pieces to rebuild off of. The objective should not be to get "good" deals. It should be to get the best deals and maximize each player's returns. You simply can't do that by keeping potential suitors in the dark. To me it's troublesome for future rebuilding deals, that Kenny targeted 1 prospect and traded whatever was needed to get him. Kenny may have left some value on the table. Apparently, not even Kenny himself knows. Thankfully, everyone knows Danks, Floyd, Thornton, and Quentin are available. Hopefully, teams don't respond that Ramirez is needed to get one prospect Kenny is in love with.

[SOXOBAMA]

Phil Rogers said a few weeks ago that Santos was being shopped to other teams, so if he knew its hard to believe not the rest of the league knew about it..

Edited December 7, 2011 by SOXOBAMA

[ScottyDo]

Phil Rogers said a few weeks ago that Santos was being shopped to other teams, so if he knew its hard to believe not the rest of the league knew about it..

 

EDIT: okay, so that image link isn't working. It was a blind squirrel.

Edited December 7, 2011 by ScottyDo

[kwolf68]

Phil Rogers said a few weeks ago that Santos was being shopped to other teams...

 

 

Evidently not the Orioles based on what their GM said.

 

This just 'feels' like a haphazard trade.

 

 

 

 

[Lemon_44]

I liked Santos but I just don't get how people are claimimg he's an elite closer. He hasn't even been a close for an entire season yet and he wasn't all that lights out in the 2nd half of last year anyway. Maybe teams started to figure him out or maybe he just tired. Either way he's been dominant as a closer for about 6-7 weeks. To get a top pitching prospect seems like a good deal to me. Santos could just as easily flame out as become an elite closer.

[SOXOBAMA]

Evidently not the Orioles based on what their GM said.

 

This just 'feels' like a haphazard trade.

 

Duquette has only been the Orioles GM for about 3 weeks.. According to AA from the Blue Jays they have been working on this trade for about a month..

 

 

[kwolf68]

I liked Santos but I just don't get how people are claimimg he's an elite closer. He hasn't even been a close for an entire season yet and he wasn't all that lights out in the 2nd half of last year anyway. Maybe teams started to figure him out or maybe he just tired. Either way he's been dominant as a closer for about 6-7 weeks. To get a top pitching prospect seems like a good deal to me. Santos could just as easily flame out as become an elite closer.

 

 

Exhibit A: The stock "Santos isn't that good" meme.

 

First of all, no one said Santos was elite, but he was clearly a very attractive trading chip. Striking out 90 in 60 innings is pretty sick. And while his ERA was a bit high (largely due to a horrible September) he still managed 30 saves in his first year of closing.

 

Santos obviously has a plus arm and it was proven at the major league level. He is in the prime of his career and he was INSANELY affordable. In this day and age of baseball where mediocre middle relievers are making more money than most state budgets it was pretty nice to have a player actually

 

EARNING HIS SALARY.

 

So what do we do? Trade him. Apparently to the first team who called for a perplexing return of a deal.

 

Not saying Molina sucks. However, I see no evidence that Williams did not leave some value on the table.

 

 

[SOXOBAMA]

Exhibit A: The stock "Santos isn't that good" meme.

 

First of all, no one said Santos was elite, but he was clearly a very attractive trading chip. Striking out 90 in 60 innings is pretty sick. And while his ERA was a bit high (largely due to a horrible September) he still managed 30 saves in his first year of closing.

 

Santos obviously has a plus arm and it was proven at the major league level. He is in the prime of his career and he was INSANELY affordable. In this day and age of baseball where mediocre middle relievers are making more money than most state budgets it was pretty nice to have a player actually

 

EARNING HIS SALARY.

 

So what do we do? Trade him. Apparently to the first team who called for a perplexing return of a deal.

 

Not saying Molina sucks. However, I see no evidence that Williams did not leave some value on the table.

 

 

Pretty much any decent closer can get 30 saves in a season..

[SOXOBAMA]

David Aardsma had almost 40 saves in 2009 and about 32 saves the following year. I am pretty sure any team can pick him up for cheap, since Seattle doesn't want him back.

 

There is only a few good closers out there today. The rest is a crap shoot from year to year

 

KW did a great job on this trade today..

Edited December 7, 2011 by SOXOBAMA

[kwolf68]

Duquette has only been the Orioles GM for about 3 weeks.. According to AA from the Blue Jays they have been working on this trade for about a month..

 

 

So what that Duquette has been GM for 3 weeks. He could have easily been contacted at any point in those 3 weeks.

 

If this is one month of intense negotiations then I am even more confused. In my view Molina was expendable to the Jays given they have Syndergaard, Nicolini, Hutchison and Norris in their system with the couple terrific young arms in their current rotation.

 

For what Santos brings to the mound and to the accounting office he should have netted more. I see NOTHING to suggest otherwise.

 

 

[kwolf68]

David Aardsma had almost 40 saves in 2009 and about 32 saves the following year. I am pretty sure any team can pick him up for cheap, since Seattle doesn't want him back.

 

There is only a few good closers out there today. The rest is a crap shoot from year to year

 

KW did a great job on this trade today..

 

 

You want the definition of crap shoot...try minor league prospects.

 

KW did a great job? I guess no one was stabbed in the ear with a butter knife so yea not bad.

 

This was NOT a great job...at best it's a 'wait and see what happens in 2 years' job.

[SOXOBAMA]

So what that Duquette has been GM for 3 weeks. He could have easily been contacted at any point in those 3 weeks.

 

If this is one month of intense negotiations then I am even more confused. In my view Molina was expendable to the Jays given they have Syndergaard, Nicolini, Hutchison and Norris in their system with the couple terrific young arms in their current rotation.

 

For what Santos brings to the mound and to the accounting office he should have netted more. I see NOTHING to suggest otherwise.

 

Santos was expendable since the Sox got Reed and a few others to replace him.