Sox Winter Meetings thread

[Harry Chappas]

The Astros can't be overly excited about moving to that division now....

 

The Mariners oughta move Felix unless they think they have a shot and overpay for Prince.

 

My guess is Prince is not signed until mid-January.

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Priority one for the Sox has to be acquiring young pitching while lowering payroll. To that end, the next guys to go should be Ramirez and Floyd (Thornton has few takers). If the demand isn't there for Danks, keep until the break. To get a blue chip pitching prospect I advocate shopping Viciedo.

 

Danks' value decreases even further if you wait until the deadline. There's now no compensation for teams that trade for impending free agents mid-season.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Milkman delivers]

The Astros can't be overly excited about moving to that division now....

 

The Mariners oughta move Felix unless they think they have a shot and overpay for Prince.

 

My guess is Prince is not signed until mid-January.

 

The Mariners would be stupid to acquire Fielder. They have no chance at competing in that division for a while.

[iamshack]

Priority one for the Sox has to be acquiring young pitching while lowering payroll. To that end, the next guys to go should be Ramirez and Floyd (Thornton has few takers). If the demand isn't there for Danks, keep until the break. To get a blue chip pitching prospect I advocate shopping Viciedo.

I think the best chance to deal Floyd is to Baltimore, but do they have anyone worth a s*** left in their system? I remember a lot of people being high on their young arms a few years ago, but where are they now? Last I heard, their system was supposedly pretty weak.

[NorthSideSox72]

Priority one for the Sox has to be acquiring young pitching while lowering payroll. To that end, the next guys to go should be Ramirez and Floyd (Thornton has few takers). If the demand isn't there for Danks, keep until the break. To get a blue chip pitching prospect I advocate shopping Viciedo.

Ramirez? Viciedo? Insane. You have to rebuild around something - young talent, specifically. Santos was similarly young and cheap and valuable to other teams, but you seem to miss a very important piece of the puzzle here - Santos was easy to replace in-house. Ramirez? Viciedo? Who will replace them?

 

[Marty34]

Danks' value decreases even further if you wait until the deadline. There's now no compensation for teams that trade for impending free agents mid-season.

 

Good point J4L. Marlins apparently won't pursue Fielder. Opening for PK in Miami?

[iamshack]

Ramirez? Viciedo? Insane. You have to rebuild around something - young talent, specifically. Santos was similarly young and cheap and valuable to other teams, but you seem to miss a very important piece of the puzzle here - Santos was easy to replace in-house. Ramirez? Viciedo? Who will replace them?

I don't think trading Ramirez is insane at all. I think you have to move him if you're going to move Danks and Floyd.

 

Viciedo I think you need to keep to give he fanbase someone to be excited about if you are indeed dumping all your vets...

[Marty34]

Ramirez? Viciedo? Insane. You have to rebuild around something - young talent, specifically. Santos was similarly young and cheap and valuable to other teams, but you seem to miss a very important piece of the puzzle here - Santos was easy to replace in-house. Ramirez? Viciedo? Who will replace them?

 

 

I don't care who replaces them. I only care about the return.

[dyuen]

I think the best chance to deal Floyd is to Baltimore, but do they have anyone worth a s*** left in their system? I remember a lot of people being high on their young arms a few years ago, but where are they now? Last I heard, their system was supposedly pretty weak.

I dont think we will get much for Floyd, not a big market for him

[NorthSideSox72]

I don't think trading Ramirez is insane at all. I think you have to move him if you're going to move Danks and Floyd.

 

Viciedo I think you need to keep to give he fanbase someone to be excited about if you are indeed dumping all your vets...

What are you rebuilding towards? There is not a shortstop in the Sox system that has any reasonable shot at ever being as good as Alexei. And few other teams have such a prospect, and furthermore, wouldn't trade them.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I don't care who replaces them. I only care about the return.

The return of what? That's the whole point. The return IS who you want to replace these guys at some point.

 

Some of you seem to miss the point of rebuilding. You are all about the demo work, but have no idea what you want to build after that.

 

[iamshack]

What are you rebuilding towards? There is not a shortstop in the Sox system that has any reasonable shot at ever being as good as Alexei. And few other teams have such a prospect, and furthermore, wouldn't trade them.

You draft one in the next few years?

 

IF you are going with a full-scale rebuild, what good is Alexei going to be to you in 3-4 years?

[Marty34]

The return of what? That's the whole point. The return IS who you want to replace these guys at some point.

 

Some of you seem to miss the point of rebuilding. You are all about the demo work, but have no idea what you want to build after that.

 

Ramirez is not a player you build around.

[Wanne]

If you get a nice return for Lexi I see no problem dealing him. He's really no spring chicken..I mean granted it leaves a HUGE hole...but if you're rebuilding...who cares. Plus...everybody keeps clamoring over getting young pitching back. That's great and all...but a young position player (SS) or two would be nice also if you're dealing guys like Danks, Thornton or Floyd.

 

 

[SoxAce]

Ramirez is not a player you build around.

 

Agreed. That is not insane to think about.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think you folks should ask yourself a question... what kind of rebuild do you want?

 

What Kenny appears to be going for... I think... is a 2-3 year timeline. That's what it looks like. He's asking for near-ready talent.

 

The alternative to that is, you tear the whole damn thing down, and start building from the very bottom, up. But here is the catch - as enticing as that idea might seem, you have to look at history, and acknowledge that teams who attempt to go that cheap and young, typically don't create a contender in 2-3 years. They end up mired in for 5, or 10, or more years.

 

Which do you want?

 

[Fantl916]

i think one thing shouldn't be lost in these discussions about whom the white sox are trading with and why. I, personally, think it's completely valid to identify who your tradeable assets are and to target specific prospects, leveraging a perceived value as much as your can while still getting the guys you want.

 

I see a lot of posts about tading with the orioles or red sox or yankees, but in reality what's the point if those orgs are only going to offer their #8 and #10 prospects? if the yankees won't part with banuelos for danks, and you don't partiucularly like guys like noesi or sanchez or heathcott then why pull the trigger?

 

one of kenny's first comments re: the trade of santos for molina was that molina was one of their top tier targets on their so-called "short list". he traded a replaceable commodity, albeit a solid asset, for someone they view as a very high quality prospect. you can't argue with that.

 

you also aren't being a good armchair gm if youre just throwing out names saying things like "i wish the white sox wouldve talked to the red sox about santos cuz gordon edes tweeted this! we couldve got kalish! lars anderson! reddick! middlebrooks!"... barf.... give me one prospect with a chance to be a #2 starter (ie a well above average MLBer) as opposed to 3 lower division types. i like kenny's approach, and anyone who's been calling for a "let the youngens play" approach should like it to.

 

with where we are, you make everyone available and see what you are offered. much like Beane is doing with Gio and Alderson is doing with Neise/Ike (Ike, depending on what you read) as you never know if someone's gonna blow you away. I see merit is listening if someone wants to talk viciedo, even if "it doesnt make sense" but the offer would have to be ridiculous to take. lest, i digress, thats not really what this post is about.

 

the reality is that kenny is doing the right thing, by idenifying whom he's most willing to deal and targeting specific prospects that his scouting/management team has identified as peeps on their short list. getting equal value doesnt necessarily mean the world at this point when you're going backwards. if the Reds offer Grandal, a guy maybe keeny sees as the catcher of the future, for Floyd don't you do it? dont you make that leap and say "screw if this isnt equal value i'm getting 1 piece that i want for someone who doesnt fit in my long term plans". i'm on board hugely with santos and nestor because of that very reason, and am for one excited for nestor molina this year to see what he's got.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Fantl916

[spiderman]

i think one thing shouldn't be lost in these discussions about whom the white sox are trading with and why. I, personally, think it's completely valid to identify who your tradeable assets are and to target specific prospects, leveraging a perceived value as much as your can while still getting the guys you want.

 

I see a lot of posts about tading with the orioles or red sox or yankees, but in reality what's the point if those orgs are only going to offer their #8 and #10 prospects? if the yankees won't part with banuelos for danks, and you don't partiucularly like guys like noesi or sanchez or heathcott then why pull the trigger?

 

one of kenny's first comments re: the trade of santos for molina was that molina was one of their top tier targets on their so-called "short list". he traded a replaceable commodity, albeit a solid asset, for someone they view as a very high quality prospect. you can't argue with that.

 

you also aren't being a good armchair gm if youre just throwing out names saying things like "i wish the white sox wouldve talked to the red sox about santos cuz gordon edes tweeted this! we couldve got kalish! lars anderson! reddick! middlebrooks!"... barf.... give me one prospect with a chance to be a #2 starter (ie a well above average MLBer) as opposed to 3 lower division types. i like kenny's approach, and anyone who's been calling for a "let the youngens play" approach should like it to.

 

with where we are, you make everyone available and see what you are offered. much like Beane is doing with Gio and Alderson is doing with Neise/Ike (Ike, depending on what you read) as you never know if someone's gonna blow you away. I see merit is listening if someone wants to talk viciedo, even if "it doesnt make sense" but the offer would have to be ridiculous to take. lest, i digress, thats not really what this post is about.

 

the reality is that kenny is doing the right thing, by idenifying whom he's most willing to deal and targeting specific prospects that his scouting/management team has identified as peeps on their short list. getting equal value doesnt necessarily mean the world at this point when you're going backwards. if the Reds offer Grandal, a guy maybe keeny sees as the catcher of the future, for Floyd don't you do it? dont you make that leap and say "screw if this isnt equal value i'm getting 1 piece that i want for someone who doesnt fit in my long term plans". i'm on board hugely with santos and nestor because of that very reason, and am for one excited for nestor molina this year to see what he's got.

 

Williams did trade a solid asset in Santos for a quality prospect in Molina, but I really hope that the White sox weren't over-rating him. I realize Toronto has a deep system, but I don't think he was cracking their top 10 list, and most projections on his future have him as a middle of the rotation starter at best. Granted, if Reed is ready to close, it's a good idea to stockpile as many pitchers with quality as possible so this does have the potential to be a good trade as long as this wasn't a Williams reach.

[iamshack]

I think you folks should ask yourself a question... what kind of rebuild do you want?

 

What Kenny appears to be going for... I think... is a 2-3 year timeline. That's what it looks like. He's asking for near-ready talent.

 

The alternative to that is, you tear the whole damn thing down, and start building from the very bottom, up. But here is the catch - as enticing as that idea might seem, you have to look at history, and acknowledge that teams who attempt to go that cheap and young, typically don't create a contender in 2-3 years. They end up mired in for 5, or 10, or more years.

 

Which do you want?

Well I agree, but it's very difficult to trade for players that are really close. Any team with "really close" prospects is going to just wait until they can contribute for their own organization.

 

Kenny needs to target teams with a short "win now" window or for particular prospects that are blocked or buried by others, but short of that, times have changed. Teams aren't going to trade cost-certainty for more costly veteran performance certainty unless they are really special veteran players. Unfortunately, we aren't really offering anyone that falls into that category.

 

Which means you either stick with what you have and just cut the excess fat (Thornton, AJ, Quentin), or you just trade all your MLB assets other than those that are undervalued but that you think will rebuild value (Gordon), or those that are still building value (Sale), and get as many high quality prospects as you can get.

 

I don't think even Kenny necessarily knows which route they are going at this early stage.

[harfman77]

Lost in the shuffle of the rebuilding talk is the new draft rules and how those will affect the Sox. Maybe now we are put into a competitive environment where the #1 criteria for drafting is ability and not signability.

 

Really there is no one on this roster who can not be had for the right package. And the team cannot afford to be conservative. The reason that Beane is seen as successful if because half of the prospects he trades for actually develop. It is time to take the shotgun approach an bring in as many prospects as possible, some will fail, some will thrive, but that is where the team is right now.

 

If nothing happens we are stuck from 3-4 in the division with no clear path.

[bmags]

I think you folks should ask yourself a question... what kind of rebuild do you want?

 

What Kenny appears to be going for... I think... is a 2-3 year timeline. That's what it looks like. He's asking for near-ready talent.

 

The alternative to that is, you tear the whole damn thing down, and start building from the very bottom, up. But here is the catch - as enticing as that idea might seem, you have to look at history, and acknowledge that teams who attempt to go that cheap and young, typically don't create a contender in 2-3 years. They end up mired in for 5, or 10, or more years.

 

Which do you want?

 

I'm thinking Kenny is trying to do an Indians rebuild.

[chetkincaid]

Good point J4L. Marlins apparently won't pursue Fielder. Opening for PK in Miami?

 

 

Hmmm.... VERY interesting. I wonder how Konerko would feel about going to play for Ozzie again.

[harfman77]

I'm thinking Kenny is trying to do an Indians rebuild.

 

 

Perpetual?

[harfman77]

Hmmm.... VERY interesting. I wonder how Konerko would feel about going to play for Ozzie again.

 

Didn't seem to bother Mark at all. I dont see it though, Pujols had value because of their Latin market. Rumor is that they will try and trade Sanchez for pitching and move LoMo to 1B.

[Steve9347]

Didn't seem to bother Mark at all. I dont see it though, Pujols had value because of their Latin market. Rumor is that they will try and trade Sanchez for pitching and move LoMo to 1B.

We have latin players. They should acquire Ramirez... 3 shortstops is better than 2!